------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Questions Date: Wed Aug 23 07:19:18 CDT 1995 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable This base is a place to pose questions that need answers. Maybe they're stupid questions; maybe insightfully bizarre. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: The Emperor Subject: Re: a question Date: Tue Mar 12 16:31:28 CST 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: -2 TE> Well maybe I live in a hole or something, but my mother is a TE> vegetarian/fruitarian(sp?) and she never gets slack from anyone. The only Bravo for her. How long has she been a vegearian? Is she a vegan? Around here, you're an Outcast if you chose to not eat meat, for whatever reason. But then again, I live in a town of inbred rednecks. TE> Are you a vegetarian or is this something you're trying to figure out? Unfortunately, no. I'm still addicted to meat, and I'm working on breaking the habit. I understand its healthy and its only logical, but I'm hooked. My parents are also highly unsupportive, and refuse to feed me if I become a vegetarian. So I plan on waiting until college. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: a question Date: Tue Mar 12 16:39:48 CST 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: -1 F> question of degree. I am an environmentalist and very blatant about it. I F> seriously believe that if we don't change the way we treat the earth that we F> will eventually destroy ourselves. Some people do not think my opinion is F> radical enough, because I think we should reduce dependency on oil, not F> eliminate it. I think we should Reduce use of nuclear power plants and shif F> to renewable fuels, not eliminate them all at once. Then there is the other F> group, who think I stand too much in the other direction and call nme a F> tree-hugger. When I suggest tht we cut down the huge oak tree in THEIR yard I totally agree. I really couldn't have said it better. F> fringe groups instead of the more centrist ones. In the future, look for F> people in the middle of the road. That's exactly where I stand. But like I previously said, meat is an addiction. I am trying to cut down mostly because of the ecological reason, such as the rapidly depleting supply of water is largely due to the consumptions of cows. Water is projected to be the most valuable resource by 2000 (but that is only an assumption), and cows are using up a great deal. Also, the rainforest is being cut down to accomodate our, the United States', need for meat. Thousands of animals are losing their habitat daily because of it. There are other factors involved in chopping down the rainforest, but this is a part of it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: a question Date: Tue Mar 12 16:41:47 CST 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: 0 DR> majority. People don't like to be told that what they're doing is immoral, DR> and get defensive. But why can't anyone understand that there is a healthier, more ethical way of living life happily. I 'spose most people don't want to, but why do they have to ostracize others for wanting to live longer? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE EMPEROR To: Duckman Subject: Re: a question Date: Tue Mar 12 20:38:49 CST 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 2 D> Bravo for her. How long has she been a vegearian? Is she a vegan? She's been one for as long as I can remember. Forgive my ignorance but I do not know what a vegan is. D> the habit. I understand its healthy and its only logical, but I'm hooked. D> parents are also highly unsupportive, and refuse to feed me if I become a Why is it only logical? Please forgive me but I'm not really informed in this area. I know little about being a vegeitarian. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Duckman Subject: Re: a question Date: Wed Mar 13 00:59:32 CST 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: 3 F> fringe groups instead of the more centrist ones. In the future, look for F> people in the middle of the road. D> D> That's exactly where I stand. But like I previously said, meat is an D> addiction. I am trying to cut down mostly because of the ecological reason, D> such as the rapidly depleting supply of water is largely due to the D> consumptions of cows. Water is projected to be the most valuable resource b Are you being centrist in this too, or trying to be totally vegetarian or vegan. Some people cannot safely eliminate meat entirely, because we were evolved as carnivores and need a certain amount of high-protein meat in our diets ti keep working righy. However, nutritionists estimate that most of us need no more than 4 oz of meat per day. That is one small can of tuna or one hamburger for the whole day. And we would be considered omnivores. The real obscenity is not your eating one hamburger a day, but someone eating sausage for breakfast, chicken for lunch, and a 16 oz steak for dinner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TBOB To: Duckman Subject: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 07:51:16 CST 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 2 I applaud your plan to be vegetarian. I suggest you wholly right in not asking yur motehr to help, because some study is needed in balancing proteins; combining beans and cereals in the diet so that the amino acids or something come out right for you. Do not simply cut out meat entirely... you have to know what you are doing to have a balanced intake. Cutting down to 4oz. a day is a lot easir and almost as useful; and eating non-beef forms of meat. (We don't have a clue that I know of about the sensience of non-animal lie forms.) I love your posts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: The Emperor Subject: Re: a question Date: Sun Mar 17 13:57:13 CST 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 5 TE> She's been one for as long as I can remember. Forgive my ignorance but I do TE> not know what a vegan is. A vegan is someone who eats only organic food. They don't eat meat, don't eat/ dairy, and so forth. D> the habit. I understand its healthy and its only logical, but I'm hooked. D> parents are also highly unsupportive, and refuse to feed me if I become a TE> TE> Why is it only logical? Please forgive me but I'm not really informed in th TE> area. I know little about being a vegeitarian. Its only logical because meat does more harm than it does good. We'd save massive amounts of water, live longer lives, and keep animals happy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: a question Date: Sun Mar 17 14:03:45 CST 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 6 F> Are you being centrist in this too, or trying to be totally F> vegetarian or vegan. Some people cannot safely eliminate meat entirely, I'm neither. I haven't made a decision yet about anything, I'm still looking at everything and thinking about it. I know it doesn't make sense, but bear with me. I don't preach about anything (or try not to) because I don't practice it. F> because we were evolved as carnivores and need a certain amount of F> high-protein meat in our diets ti keep working righy. However, nutritionist It is possible to eat a high protein diet & still avoid meat. I know of a classmate who has been a vegetarian her entire life, and she needs a lot of protein. She is in excellent shape, and she has an outstanding figure. She just goes to show what you can look like when you don't eat meat. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Tbob Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 14:09:42 CST 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 7 T> I applaud your plan to be vegetarian. I suggest you wholly right in T> not asking yur motehr to help, Can you explain that a little more clearly? T> entirely... you have to know what you are doing to have a balanced intake. T> Cutting down to 4oz. a day is a lot easir and almost as useful; and eating T> non-beef forms of meat. That I honestly didn't know. I realize that I need to look at a more balanced diet, and I do need to research. What can you tell me about getting the necessary vitamins & minerals from meat without eating it? I mean, what can I eat that would equal that nutrient intake? T> I love your posts. Are you being a dick or are you serious?!? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Duckman Subject: Re: a question Date: Sun Mar 17 16:09:49 CST 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 9 F> because we were evolved as carnivores and need a certain amount of F> high-protein meat in our diets ti keep working righy. However, nutritionist D> D> It is possible to eat a high protein diet & still avoid meat. I know of a D> classmate who has been a vegetarian her entire life, and she needs a lot of D> protein. She is in excellent shape, and she has an outstanding figure. She D> just goes to show what you can look like when you don't eat meat. Other people have tried to not eat meat and become very ill. It is possible, but it takes a fair amount of education and dedication. The problem is not to eat a *lot* of protein, but to eat it in balanced amounts. For example, wheat with legumes is almost complete protein. I had to learn about it when I was living in a house with a child with severe allergies. He was allergic to beef, milk, eggs, and pork. He was also allergic to peanits, beans, and other legumes. It was real tricky to get complete protein into him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Duckman Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 16:16:33 CST 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 10 T> Cutting down to 4oz. a day is a lot easir and almost as useful; and eating T> non-beef forms of meat. D> D> That I honestly didn't know. I realize that I need to look at a more balanc I told you. :) The fact that so many of us are eating more than 4 oz of red meat per day is one reason why we have so many cholesterol and heart attack problems. D> diet, and I do need to research. What can you tell me about getting the D> necessary vitamins & minerals from meat without eating it? I mean, what can D> eat that would equal that nutrient intake? D> You can't exactly. Especially vitamin B12. Others can be supplemented by a good multiple vitamin. There are a few old books that are good -- *Diet for a Small Planet* is one. Look for things published by Rodale Press. The problem is not vitamins and minerals. The problem is protein. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE ARTFUL DODGER To: Tbob Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 18:10:40 CST 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 7 T> I applaud your plan to be vegetarian. I suggest you wholly right in T> not asking yur motehr to help, because some study is needed in balancing T> proteins; combining beans and cereals in the diet so that the amino T> acids or something come out right for you. Do not simply cut out meat T> entirely... you have to know what you are doing to have a balanced intake. T> Cutting down to 4oz. a day is a lot easir and almost as useful; and eating T> non-beef forms of meat. T> (We don't have a clue that I know of about the sensience of non-animal T> lie forms.) I am a vegitarian, and have been for approximately six months. Six months, in all honesty, isn't a very long time, but it is a period for sure. Vegitariansim, in all honesty, is not a sacrifice at all. Even with the smallest amount of motivation it is easy to give up meat, and perhaps save a few lives. As for your diet after being a vegitarian, I would not be too worried. Without giving much though on what my diet would be, I decide that one day I would try it out. The only important thing that I know of would be to get your fair share of beans for protein. There are many vegitarian cookbooks that have a lot of balanced, and delicous meals. If you truly feel motivated to stop the exploitation of animals you may be interested in becoming a vegan. A vegan is someone who consume no animal byproducts at all whatsoever (if you didn't know). Or try and eliminate some animal byproducts from your diet. The point is you should try to make a difference. If anyone would want, I could post a series of posts concerning modern livestock practices. T> (We don't have a clue that I know of about the sensience of non-animal T> lie forms.) Hmm...sentience is state of consciousness, or the ability to feel. In my opinion non-animal life forms (ie plants) are obviously non-sentient. Plants cannot feel pain... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE ARTFUL DODGER To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 18:17:20 CST 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 12 F> You can't exactly. Especially vitamin B12. Others can be F> supplemented by a good multiple vitamin. There are a few old books that are F> good -- *Diet for a Small Planet* is one. Look for things published by Roda F> Press. The problem is not vitamins and minerals. The problem is protein. I can't seem to find it right now, but I know that somewhere I have a vegan pamphlet about how to get all your necessary vitamins and minerals with consuming no animal byproducts. There are plenty of complete protein vegitarian meals. You just need to eat beans. If whomever is that concerned I can get you the recipees for at least a few. -The Artful (formerly Springer) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Artful Dodger Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Sun Mar 17 18:50:34 CST 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 13 T> (We don't have a clue that I know of about the sensience of non-animal T> lie forms.) TA> TA> Hmm...sentience is state of consciousness, or the ability to feel. In TA> opinion non-animal life forms (ie plants) are obviously non-sentient. Plan TA> cannot feel pain... What about the Mimosa tree, predatory plants, and others that move? Seem to be sentient to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE ARTFUL DODGER To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Mon Mar 18 07:55:28 CST 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 15 TA> Hmm...sentience is state of consciousness, or the ability to feel. In TA> opinion non-animal life forms (ie plants) are obviously non-sentient. Plan TA> cannot feel pain... F> F> What about the Mimosa tree, predatory plants, and others that move? F> Seem to be sentient to me. A plant cannot feel pain. There is no evidence that they can. In Great Britain, the Committee on Cruelty to Wild Animals said: Ò...we believe that the physiological, and more particularly the anatomical, evidence fully justifies and reinforces the common sense belief that animals feel pain.Ó The "R" and "S" are where qutoes are supposed to be. Name such evidence in the case that plants have the ability to feel pain, which would prove that they are sentient. -The Artful ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Artful Dodger Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Mon Mar 18 12:25:14 CST 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: 16 F> What about the Mimosa tree, predatory plants, and others that move? F> Seem to be sentient to me. TA> TA> The "R" and "S" are where qutoes are supposed to be. Name such evidenc TA> in the case that plants have the ability to feel pain, which would prove th TA> they are sentient. TA> Why don't you just use quotes instead of "smart quotes?" The mimosa curls up and moves away in response to touch, as opposed to the motion of predatory plants. If this in not a response to actual pain, it is at least an aversion reaction. If it is not sentient, how can it try to avert anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Tue Mar 19 13:07:06 CST 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: -26 T> Some bought into the myth of defending the country against the yellow T> hordes and the red menace. Others feel the need to be told what to do. T> Others just sort of fall into it. There are also some that feel they T> owe a debt to their country and this is a way to repay it. And of course, there are the scum who sign up because it's a paycheck. Mercenaries. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE ARTFUL DODGER To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Tue Mar 19 17:12:34 CST 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 17 F> Why don't you just use quotes instead of "smart quotes?" The mimos Quotes, Smart Quotes....what do you mean? F> Why don't you just use quotes instead of "smart quotes?" The mimos F> curls up and moves away in response to touch, as opposed to the motion of F> predatory plants. If this in not a response to actual pain, it is at least F> aversion reaction. If it is not sentient, how can it try to avert anything? Truthfully, I know too little about plants too say anything very intelligent in a counter-argument. Plants do not have the capabilities of feeling pain. Some still believe that animals cannot sense pain; I believe tht plants cannot feel pain. I do not see enough evidence to support the conclusion that they can. I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about the Mimosa tree...although I could always do research. If I get to it, I will reply again. -The Artful ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Artful Dodger Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Tue Mar 19 18:31:41 CST 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 19 TA> Quotes, Smart Quotes....what do you mean? TA> "Smart quotes are those that are used in professional printing that go in 2 directions. The other quotes are just straight up and down. Many enhanced word processors like MS Word/Windows have both. If you code a "smart quote" and it is transported to another system that does not have the smart quotes, they are often printer as an R or another special character. TA> Truthfully, I know too little about plants too say anything very TA> intelligent in a counter-argument. Plants do not have the capabilities of TA> feeling pain. Some still believe that animals cannot sense pain; I believe Why do you think plants do not feel pain? Where is pain located? Is it in nerves? Undoubtedly. But there are also kinds of pain that originate in other kinds of tissues. Therefore, plants DO have the capacity to feel pain. It seems to me that this is the same kind of blind argument that people use who are insisting that animals feel pain. Anyone who has ever picked up a dog after it got hit on the road knows that it feels pain and fear. Anyone who has ever watches the leaves of a mimosa retreat kmows that they are reacting to fear. Of what? Pain? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Wed Mar 20 02:31:27 CST 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 20 F> in other kinds of tissues. Therefore, plants DO have the capacity to feel F> pain. It seems to me that this is the same kind of blind argument that peop F> use who are insisting that animals feel pain. Anyone who has ever picked up F> dog after it got hit on the road knows that it feels pain and fear. Anyone F> who has ever watches the leaves of a mimosa retreat kmows that they are F> reacting to fear. Of what? Pain? This seems way too generalized to me. 1. Plant are NOT sentient. This we all can agree on. If they react at all, it's probably because of something in their nature that make it happen, not a "decision". 2. What "other kinds of tissues" do you mean? 3. Gauging what something is feeling based on external behavior is extremely difficult. Gamblers make money fooling other people doing, and anyone who says they can "read what a plant" is feeling sounds like a crank to me. That doesn't disqualify them, but it makes me really skeptical(as I am when people say "My friend Bob looked scared"). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Briareos Hecatonchires Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Wed Mar 20 03:05:15 CST 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 21 BH> 1. Plant are NOT sentient. This we all can agree on. If they react a BH> all, it's probably because of something in their nature that make it happen BH> not a "decision". You would be surprised how many people disagree with you on this. And how much study has appeared to show otherwise. We do NOT all agree on this. BH> 2. What "other kinds of tissues" do you mean? Vascular tissues, in particular. Possibly others. F> use who are insisting that animals feel pain. Anyone who has ever picked up F> dog after it got hit on the road knows that it feels pain and fear. Anyone BH> 3. Gauging what something is feeling based on external behavior is BH> extremely difficult. How many dogs have you picked up off the highway after they were injured? Did you know whether they were in pain or not? I do. For one thing, they may bite you, even if they are normally friendly. One of the most mysterious and difficult to assess animals is a raptor. Their enyes do not changg, they make no noise. Except for owls. who always clack just because they're generally pissed. But the external behavior that they are in pain is that they do not fly away. If they had a broken leg with no blood loss, you would expect that they would be strong enough to leave. And they do some times. Other times they do not. They go into shock, and are threatened. I had a puppy who died of fear alone when I was a child. She ran under a car and was not physically injured in any way. But she went into shock from the fear and died. This is some pretty blatant external behavior. BH> anyone who says they can "read what a plant" is feeling sounds like a crank It is a question of understanding nature. Nature is very frugal. No creature will waste nutrients and energy unless it is absolutely necessary. If a mimosa branch moves away when you touch it, yhere is a rationa reason fr it, not a parapsychological one. BH> me. That doesn't disqualify them, but it makes me really skeptical(as I am BH> when people say "My friend Bob looked scared"). Why? Bob can look scared but that is a far reach from proving that he *is* scared. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Wed Mar 20 13:08:30 CST 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 22 F> You would be surprised how many people disagree with you on this. F> And how much study has appeared to show otherwise. We do NOT all agree on F> this. Look, it's not physically possible for plants to be sentient. Though I'm sure that somewhere exists a plant that has a ganglia or two, that in no way constitutes a full-blown nervous system. Yes, plants use chemical warfare when they're attacked, but I'd attribute all this to plain old Darwinian evolution. F> How many dogs have you picked up off the highway after they were F> injured? Did you know whether they were in pain or not? I do. For one So do I, mostly because dogs and other mammals are basically the same as us genetically. When comparing DNA strands between us and protozoa*, the strands are something like 70%-80% similar, and mammals? I think it's in the 90s. Dogs have eyes, ears, a mouth, teeth, vocal cords, etc., and we can more easily read them because of it. I don't care how adept a person thinks they are at reading plants. Unless there's some way to plainly prove that they aren't reading more into a reaction than is there, I'll err on the side of skepticism. F> It is a question of understanding nature. Nature is very frugal. N F> creature will waste nutrients and energy unless it is absolutely necessary. F> If a mimosa branch moves away when you touch it, yhere is a rationa reason f F> it, not a parapsychological one. Creatures "waste nutrients and energy" all the time. What do you think puppies playing or chasing their tails is? I'm all for a rational reason the reactions of mimosa; I just happen to think that they're re*-acting, in the same instinctual way insects swarm, and not pro-acting. BH> me. That doesn't disqualify them, but it makes me really skeptical(as I am BH> when people say "My friend Bob looked scared"). F> F> Why? Bob can look scared but that is a far reach from proving that F> he *is* scared. Right, you uh...proved my point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Briareos Hecatonchires Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Wed Mar 20 14:31:51 CST 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 23 F> You would be surprised how many people disagree with you on this. F> And how much study has appeared to show otherwise. We do NOT all agree on F> this. BH> BH> Look, it's not physically possible for plants to be sentient. Though I BH> sure that somewhere exists a plant that has a ganglia or two, that in no wa As YOU understand what it means to be sentient. This does not mean that this is the only way it is. F> How many dogs have you picked up off the highway after they were F> injured? Did you know whether they were in pain or not? I do. For one BH> BH> So do I, mostly because dogs and other mammals are basically the same a BH> us genetically. When comparing DNA strands between us and protozoa*, the So do you what? BH> strands are something like 70%-80% similar, and mammals? I think it's in t BH> 90s. Dogs have eyes, ears, a mouth, teeth, vocal cords, etc., and we can m Actually, about 97%. But I do not think that defines sentient. You gave the example of a protozoa, which is a much simpler plant than mimosa. They react by moving away from a stimulus they perceive to be a threat. Whether you call it "pain" or not, they are bioolgically equpiied to avoid a threat. This is the same advantage that pain gives us. BH> there's some way to plainly prove that they aren't reading more into a BH> reaction than is there, I'll err on the side of skepticism. Healthy to be skeptical, but the ability to perceive and avoid threats is a characteristic od life iteslf, and has been recognized as such for a long time. BH> Creatures "waste nutrients and energy" all the time. What do you think BH> puppies playing or chasing their tails is? They are learning to stalk and kill prey. They are learning to become predators. In the wild. dogs are pretty much on their own to find and kill food for themselves by the time they are 6 months old. This "playing" is not wasting energy. It is crucial to whether they will survive into adulthood. F> Why? Bob can look scared but that is a far reach from proving that F> he *is* scared. BH> BH> Right, you uh...proved my point. No I didn't. I proved that Bob, superior human that he is, can appear to show fear or pain when he really isn't. He is using that human brain of his to con others. Mimosas do not have this ability to con. They are simply reacting to avoid a threat without putting on a mask. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE ARTFUL DODGER To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Thu Mar 21 10:56:23 CST 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 20 F> "Smart quotes are those that are used in professional printing that F> go in 2 directions. The other quotes are just straight up and down. Many F> enhanced word processors like MS Word/Windows have both. If you code a "sma F> quote" and it is transported to another system that does not have the smart F> quotes, they are often printer as an R or another special character. Yes...the reason I used "smart quotes" is because I was importing it from a paper that I had written on the topic... F> Why do you think plants do not feel pain? Where is pain located? I Hmm...I'll tell you what. Since you made the original argument that plants can feel pain, why don't you include additional evidence to support this conclusion. It is your point to prove, not mine to disprove. I'd also appreciate it if you would cite specific information. Such a topic is very important to have specific information, and not generilizations. As of right now...I do not believe that plant can feel pain. What kinds of tissue do you propose sense pain, and where is this tissue present in plants? What plants is this tissue present in? My question is even if there tissues that can sense pain (I'm not saying that there are) what registers this pain? -The Artful ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: a question Date: Thu Mar 21 12:05:40 CST 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 11 F> Other people have tried to not eat meat and become very ill. It is F> possible, but it takes a fair amount of education and dedication. The probl I have another friend who is like that. He got very sick for a while, but then got better. Right now he basically lives off of cheese pizza. I really don't know how he stays healthy... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Artful Dodger Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Thu Mar 21 15:47:35 CST 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 25 TA> Yes...the reason I used "smart quotes" is because I was importing it fr TA> a paper that I had written on the topic... TA> I wasn't bothered by them because I am an editor and I read them like that all the time. But you might consider doing a global "Replace" before you convert them to ASCII, because as you have seen, ASCII codes for the smart quotes too. :) F> Why do you think plants do not feel pain? Where is pain located? I TA> TA> Hmm...I'll tell you what. Since you made the original argument that TA> plants can feel pain, why don't you include additional evidence to support TA> this conclusion. It is your point to prove, not mine to disprove. I did. I said that it depends on how you define pain, but all living things have some ability to sense and avoid danger. This is what I call "pain." TA> My question is even if there tissues that can sense pain (I'm not sayin TA> that there are) what registers this pain? TA> I don't know. I know that I worked at the Smithsonisn for three years with benthic marine animals, the lowest life forms there are, other than plants. During that time, I saw some very weird things that the professional marine biologists had seen so often that they just took them for granted. For example, some speciae of medusae that had very little organized nervous system. But if you put your hand in the tank where thy were, they scurried away. They were mostly protoplasm. I think a lot of this may be chemical stimulation and undiffrentiated cells respond to it. But I just don't know. There is a whole world out there to explore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Duckman Subject: Re: a question Date: Thu Mar 21 15:49:18 CST 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 26 F> Other people have tried to not eat meat and become very ill. It is F> possible, but it takes a fair amount of education and dedication. The probl D> D> I have another friend who is like that. He got very sick for a while, but D> then got better. Right now he basically lives off of cheese pizza. I reall D> don't know how he stays healthy... He probably won't for long. In fact, the thing of taking cheese as your only source of protein is a bad idea. He is better off with eggs or chicken. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TBOB To: All Subject: diet Date: Thu Mar 21 17:53:48 CST 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: unavailable One of the important things of diet is variety. I suspect one could de a study on social energy based on availability of varied diet. Comparing three or so historic periods in Peru would be one starting point: the Inca had the people trading stuff up and down at least tent housand feet elevation, so mountain people had some sea food and sea farers had some potatoes, etc. This is sketchy and based on old reading, but I do believe such a study would "bear fruit" in terms of understanding why some periods of history are more productive, and what can be done to encourage energetic societies. Simpler: too much on thing ain't likely good: eggs have cholesterol; even milk isn't all good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tbob Subject: Re: diet Date: Fri Mar 22 01:47:29 CST 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 29 T> One of the important things of diet is variety. T> Simpler: too much on thing ain't likely good: T> eggs have cholesterol; even milk isn't all good. But eggs have other nutrients we need, and if we only eat a few eggs, along with potatoes, spinach, and yams, we are OK. Looks like the Incas figured it out too. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TBOB To: Froggy Subject: Re: diet Date: Fri Mar 22 18:45:01 CST 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 30 F> But eggs have other nutrients we need, and if we only eat a few egg F> along with potatoes, spinach, and yams, we are OK. Looks like the Incas F> figured it out too. :) One of mottoes I might try following some day: Never underestimate the wisdom of so-called primitive peoples. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Froggy Subject: Re: vegetarian Date: Fri Mar 22 20:31:45 CST 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 24 F> As YOU understand what it means to be sentient. This does not mean F> that this is the only way it is. Of course not. I'm going to use this quote to haunt your argument, by the way. F> injured? Did you know whether they were in pain or not? I do. For one BH> BH> So do I, mostly because dogs and other mammals are basically the same a BH> us genetically. When comparing DNA strands between us and protozoa*, the F> F> So do you what? Know whether the dog(or whatever) is in pain. Ack. Back to 11th grade grammar for me... F> Actually, about 97%. But I do not think that defines sentient. Yo Oh, not at all. Most mammals might be debatably sentient, but there's no way to really tell, at least not now. F> gave the example of a protozoa, which is a much simpler plant than mimosa. F> They react by moving away from a stimulus they perceive to be a threat. F> Whether you call it "pain" or not, they are bioolgically equpiied to avoid F> threat. This is the same advantage that pain gives us. Well...maybe it's more accurate to say that they're "programmed" to avoid touch, rather than threat. True, most touch is threatening, but a fly landing on one of the leaves(I mean an ordinary housefly) isn't threatening, so arguint causality here seems inappropriate. I think an important thing here is that "perceptions" are rarely built-in, as the mimosa seems to have. Planaria have genetic memory, and that's still a big mystery, so that could be responsible for a reaction like this. But a perception, at least for a sentient life-form is learned. Puppies get run over all the time when let outdoors too early, because they don't have the perception that getting whacked by a car is harmful. It's learned behavior. Arguing that certain plants can be sentient explains a lot of stuff: the mimosa reaction, the chemical warfare, phototropism, etc., but when it comes down to it, if plants are so smart, why are they so easy to kill? Certain species of tree release chemicals into the soil when they're under attack by insects; following this, the other trees around "ground zero" exude their own chemicals which ward off insects. Maybe evolution moves slow, but since trees have been around for so much longer than we have, why aren't they beating up the logging crews by now? One things I might* be able to buy is that at one point, a proto-plant did* achieve sentience. The behavior patterns it developed were passed down through genetic memory to almost all if not* all plants, but the sentience-mutation was lost somewhere along the line, leaving only the trained-in responses. F> Healthy to be skeptical, but the ability to perceive and avoid F> threats is a characteristic od life iteslf, and has been recognized as such F> for a long time. Actually, it's a quality of sentience, but why mince words. Because there's issue as to whether or not the plants are perceiving or not, this line of reasoning has to be more carefully analyzed than "it's demonstrating one of dozens of qualities of self-awareness. It must be self-aware." F> kill food for themselves by the time they are 6 months old. This "playing" F> not wasting energy. It is crucial to whether they will survive into F> adulthood. And herein lies the problem; by your definition of waste, you're right. By mine you're wrong. We can say 'nuh-uh!' to each other until we're blue in the face, but the puppies are still doing what they do, regardless of us. Sheesh. I never thought this would turn into Taoism. F> No I didn't. I proved that Bob, superior human that he is, can F> appear to show fear or pain when he really isn't. He is using that human So how do you know the mimosas aren't doing the same thing? "Because they're just plants?" Gimme a break. F> brain of his to con others. Mimosas do not have this ability to con. They F> are simply reacting to avoid a threat without putting on a mask. Oh? -> F> As YOU understand what it means to be sentient. This does not mean F> that this is the only way it is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tbob Subject: Re: diet Date: Fri Mar 22 22:55:08 CST 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: 31 T> Never underestimate the wisdom of so-called primitive peoples. Here's another way to put it: humans have been on this earth about 20 million years. "Modern civilization" began about 2,000 years ago. Who has had the longest shot at it? And who seems hell-bent to destroy the world and its creatures? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Duckman Subject: Re: a question Date: Mon Mar 25 12:08:13 CST 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: 4 DR> majority. People don't like to be told that what they're doing is immoral, DR> and get defensive. D> But why can't anyone understand that there is a healthier, more ethical way D> living life happily. I 'spose most people don't want to, but why do they ha D> to ostracize others for wanting to live longer? Misery loves company. If you appear to be more moral than I am, that diminishes me. Therefore, you will not be more moral than I am. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: a question Date: Mon Mar 25 12:11:19 CST 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: 34 D> But why can't anyone understand that there is a healthier, more ethical way D> living life happily. I 'spose most people don't want to, but why do they ha D> to ostracize others for wanting to live longer? DR> DR> If you appear to be more moral than I am, that diminishes me. Therefore, y DR> will not be more moral than I am. True, but there is also the possibility that the person does not agree that his happy life is immoral and wishes that people who do would keep their opinions to themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Mon Mar 25 12:13:15 CST 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 20 TA> Quotes, Smart Quotes....what do you mean? TA> F> "Smart quotes are those that are used in professional printing that F> go in 2 directions. The other quotes are just straight up and down. Many F> enhanced word processors like MS Word/Windows have both. If you code a "sma F> quote" and it is transported to another system that does not have the smart F> quotes, they are often printer as an R or another special character. FYI: That kind of quote is common when translating a Macintosh file to IBM format. That's probably the case here ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Mon Mar 25 12:17:13 CST 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 36 DR> FYI: That kind of quote is common when translating a Macintosh file to IBM DR> format. That's probably the case here ... I don't doubt it, but where I ran into them was where David used them in MS Word/Windows and my WordPerfect 6.0 didn't like them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: a question Date: Tue Mar 26 13:01:59 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 34 DR> If you appear to be more moral than I am, that diminishes me. Therefore, y DR> will not be more moral than I am. I kinda like that! It took me a little bit, but it makes total sense. I can't believe how true that is... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DIRGE To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Fri Mar 29 16:51:44 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: unavailable FR>D> I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's a book called FR>D> War Crimes by a former US Attourney General that did an after FR>D> the fact behind the scenes look at what happened on the FR>D> battlefield. I think it had some of the first pictures of the FR>D> highway of death widely published in the US. FR> Yes, I have heard of the book, if you are talking about MacNamara. FR>have also seen him on talking head shows talking about it. I have never re FR>the book, and now that you mentioned the pictures, I am less inclined to. FR>whole Vietnam thing has been so wrenching and emotional for me that I usual FR>go to pieces when I see realistic pictures. And I don't go to pieces easil Yeah, that's the guy. Some parts of it are pretty visual, especially some of the "Highway of Death" pictures, so I guess you'd better steer clear of it. --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ What's G-13 do, Bobby? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DIRGE To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Fri Mar 29 16:51:45 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: unavailable DR>D> I'm not 100% sure about this, but I've heard it told that those DR>D> GI scholarships, or at least some kind of higher education DR>D> funding from the military that they promise you when you sign DR>D> up, is paid in such small increments that it's almost useless. DR>D> I remember hearing something like $200 a month, but I could very DR>D> well be wrong. Can someone out there verify this for me? DR> A friend of mine is in the Reserves, and gets half of his college paid for DR>the army. it's delayed by several months, but when he gets the reimbursemen DR>it is all in on lump sum. Interesting. I wonder if that's the G.I. bill that's so widely touted in the media. --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ Evolve...or Die. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dirge Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Sun Mar 31 07:17:10 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 DR> A friend of mine is in the Reserves, and gets half of his college paid for D> DR>the army. it's delayed by several months, but when he gets the reimbursem D> DR>it is all in on lump sum. D> D> Interesting. I wonder if that's the G.I. bill that's so widely D> touted in the media. Perhaps. The original G.I. Bill was setup after WW II, for all the returning war veterans. It helped to educate a generation of people, and seemed to work pretty damned well. Today, because there are too many potential reruits, the army/reserves/ whatever don't provide too much to the people who go onto colege. They might cover half of the tuition, no books, no rent, etc. So it really doesn't amount to a whole lot, no matter what the ads on TV say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Sun Mar 31 11:14:00 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 41 DR> Perhaps. The original G.I. Bill was setup after WW II, for all the returni DR> war veterans. It helped to educate a generation of people, and seemed to DR> work pretty damned well. DR> One of the maddening things is that the last generation of people like my father and Dole were beneficiaries of the Bill. Besides education, it also provided low-interest mortgage loans, medical care, and other things. Now that these people are reaching their 70s and had all of this help, many of them are very outspoken about how THEY opened businesses got their educations, and took care of themselves, and today's young GIs should take care of themselves too. They seem to have forgotten all the government help that they had. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Be All You Can Be Date: Mon Apr 01 08:57:30 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 42 F> Now that these people are reaching their 70s and had all of this help, many F> them are very outspoken about how THEY opened businesses got their education F> and took care of themselves, and today's young GIs should take care of F> themselves too. They seem to have forgotten all the government help that th F> had. How quickly we forget our history ... and who helped bootstrap us to where we are today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARKSHINE To: Froggy Subject: folic acid Date: Thu Jun 13 22:05:19 CDT 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: unavailable One of my brothers was born with a cleft lip and pallate. About 19% of those born with trisomy 9 (such as my two brothers) have this defect. Should they be taking in more folic acid in their diets than normal children? |05 . ú . ú . |05 ®(ð=-Darkshine-=ð)¯ |05 ù . ù . ù ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Darkshine Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Fri Jun 14 00:25:14 CDT 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: 44 D> One of my brothers was born with a cleft lip and pallate. About 19% of D> those born with trisomy 9 (such as my two brothers) have this defect. Shoul D> they be taking in more folic acid in their diets than normal children? D> Probably not, because their aberration was caused by screwed up signals because of that third gene. Also, the need for folic acid is expressed mainly in the earliest stages of embryological development, until the time that the normal notochord closes, about 3 weeks of pregnancy. After that, additional folic acid will not influence this defect. This is why it is so important that young women maintain a good diet and aviod chemicals. A lot of crucial stuff is going on in a pregnancy even before she knows she is pregnant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Darkshine Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Fri Jun 14 07:27:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: 44 D> One of my brothers was born with a cleft lip and pallate. About 19% of D> those born with trisomy 9 (such as my two brothers) have this defect. Shoul Woh! YOu could write a book, along with everyone else! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Darkshine Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Sat Jun 15 04:51:06 CDT 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 44 D> One of my brothers was born with a cleft lip and pallate. About 19% of D> those born with trisomy 9 (such as my two brothers) have this defect. Shoul D> they be taking in more folic acid in their diets than normal children? D> Before we know, we would have to understand how the extra chromosome proteins affect the metabolism of folic acid. It is possible that there mey be a higher than normal need for folic acid because there is some interference with absorbing and metabolizing it. It is also possible that the effect of the aberration is that it will completely block the use of folic acid and eating more of it is useless. There is no way to know until someone works out the mechanism of how this biochemical system works. Similarly, I have a friend who carries a tendency for cleft palate in her family. She and a brother have it, as well as her daughter. They also have involvements causing problems with their ears. I have wondered if this also translates to a genetically higher-than-normal need for folic acid by their pregnant women. Under any circumstances, additional folic acid will not help your brother at this point. The clefts were formed during the earliest stages of pregnancy, usually during the first two weeks of pregnancy. Folic acid deficiency at this time in the mother's diet is known to be one cause of it because of its role during embryonic development. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CAPTAIN TEEBO To: Starfox Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Sat Jun 15 14:59:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: 46 S> Woh! YOu could write a book, along with everyone else! She did, actually. :) Froggy, why don't you repost the information on the Wellness Directory(?) for all to read? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Captain Teebo Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Sat Jun 15 16:56:16 CDT 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 48 S> Woh! YOu could write a book, along with everyone else! CT> CT> She did, actually. :) Froggy, why don't you repost the information on the CT> Wellness Directory(?) for all to read? CT> First, disclaimers: the original post was not to me, but to Darkshine. Second, I did not write a book. I was the chief editor of the *Minnesota Wellness Directory.* It is available at most food co-ops and health food stores. If anyone is interested in it and cannot find it, e-mail me. The *Wellness Directory is a directory of as many of the "alternative" medical providers as we could locate. For areas that are very rare, such as Laitrile treatment for cancer, we have also listed a few clinics out of Minnesota. The book contina obvious alternatives such as chitopractors, naturopaths, herbalists, bodyworkers, etc., but it also contains more -- er, "unusual" things like psychic readers and shamans. Each issue of the *Wellness Directory* also has a text area, where we deal with newly discovered medical subjects. This year's issue was on "Cancer and the immune system, and has a lot of info about teas and ionized waters being used, respectively, as immunomodulators and detoxicants, and similar information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Captain Teebo Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Sun Jun 16 15:41:37 CDT 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 48 CT> She did, actually. :) Froggy, why don't you repost the information on the CT> Wellness Directory(?) for all to read? Forgot about that. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARKSHINE To: Starfox Subject: Re: folic acid Date: Sun Jun 16 21:10:04 CDT 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 45 S> Woh! YOu could write a book, along with everyone else! I plan on it sometime in the next few years. Probably not about me, though. |05 . ú . ú . |05 ®(ð=-Darkshine-=ð)¯ |05 ù . ù . ù