------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Mind Snare Date: Fri May 13 09:36:13 CDT 1994 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable This is a base to discuss emotions; life, the universe and your place in it. Why can't you do what you feel like? Why is that girl in school ignoring you? Why am I asking such stupid questions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GOLDILOCKS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 07:14:34 CDT 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: -1 DR> I was thinking that might have been you, if you're the person who said `hi DR> when I was standing in line for my ID. I'd already been standing and sweati DR> for a half hour, and wasn't really paying attention to anything but the lit DR> voice inside my head that kept screaming, "I hate lines! That's why I went DR> a private, $14,000 a year school - to avoid the lines!". If Ed McMahon had DR> walked up with a check, it wouldn't have mattered ... I was just out of it. Yeah it was in Sorin...So ya wouldn't have recgonized Ed McMahon! Hmmm you were out of it. Tis alright I basically slept through the matricalution cermony (or however the hell you spell it) DR> Spoiled by high school, eh? I was somewhat prepared for the workload by This in an UNDERSTATEMENT.... DR> Good luck ... And best of luck to you, my friend Take care Goldi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LITTLE NIRO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 07:42:19 CDT 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: -6 F> It may not be too much of a problem. Emotional upset, like starting F> school, having a pregnancy scare, or a lot of exercise could also make her F> this month late. Obviously, she needs to know for sure, becuse that will F> help. Future advice: condoms prevent *both* pregnancy and Aids, and F> heterosexual teenagers are the fastest growing group with Aids. She's pregnant. Got tested positive yesterday. This is not cool. I ragged on the kid before he had sex and after it about using a condom. I even gave him some the day before he did it. Still didn't use em. I'd write some more but my minds a little out there today since it's been only hours since i found out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Goldilocks Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 08:07:38 CDT 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: -5 G> Nah, I just don't want to have to actually STUDY and WORK for grades, that a G> the fact that I'm not used to sharing space with a roomie. (the only child G> syndrome, perhaps) Well I'll just bug the living hell out of claymoer, G> Someone's got to.. I don't care if you bug the living hell outta me (hehe). And waddya mean that someone's got to??? Believe me its no burden, I consider it a priviledge to be bugged by Goldi. Later, Claymoer --I have been and always shall be your friend. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Little Niro Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 10:12:58 CDT 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 3 F> heterosexual teenagers are the fastest growing group with Aids. LN> She's pregnant. Got tested positive yesterday. This is not cool. I ragge LN> on the kid before he had sex and after it about using a condom. I even gav This looks like a good time to mention that there is a new state law that will insist that he pay child support for the next 19 years in exchange for the "priviledge" of not wearing a condom. If he doesn't, he can lose his driver's license. Commendations to you. You obviously did the best you could, and presumably are protecting yourself too. I hope that you AND your friend will tell all the other kids that will listen what you now know as the facts. I would also suggest that in 6 months they also both get an HIV test. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 10:14:20 CDT 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: 4 G> syndrome, perhaps) Well I'll just bug the living hell out of claymoer, G> Someone's got to.. C> C> And waddya mean that someone's got to??? Believe me its no burden, I consid C> it a priviledge to be bugged by Goldi. C> Well, if she is busy with studying, I can always stand in for her. What was your voice number again? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 13:22:47 CDT 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 6 G> syndrome, perhaps) Well I'll just bug the living hell out of claymoer, G> Someone's got to.. C> C> And waddya mean that someone's got to??? Believe me its no burden, I consid C> it a priviledge to be bugged by Goldi. C> F> Well, if she is busy with studying, I can always stand in for her. F> What was your voice number again? Uhhhh, what do you mean you can stand in for her?? She bugs me in a good way...... Later, Claymoer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 13:53:48 CDT 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 7 G> syndrome, perhaps) Well I'll just bug the living hell out of claymoer, G> Someone's got to.. C> F> Well, if she is busy with studying, I can always stand in for her. F> What was your voice number again? C> C> Uhhhh, what do you mean you can stand in for her?? C> Well, you can only have so much in a temporary replacement. I couldn't be a permanent replacement. I could only call you up at 3 am, tell you it is time to get up. Stuff like that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LITTLE NIRO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 14:03:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 5 F> This looks like a good time to mention that there is a new state la F> that will insist that he pay child support for the next 19 years in exchange F> for the "priviledge" of not wearing a condom. If he doesn't, he can lose his F> driver's license. Commendations to you. You obviously did the best you F> could, and presumably are protecting yourself too. I hope that you AND your F> friend will tell all the other kids that will listen what you now know as th F> facts. I would also suggest that in 6 months they also both get an HIV test Man it's so fucked up. I gave him rubbers the day before and ragged on him to use him cause i knew it was bound to happen. The sad part is that he actually had one in his back pocket when he did it. About HIV? Another very scary story. I"m good friends with the girl and i know my ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LITTLE NIRO To: Little Niro Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 14:08:11 CDT 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 9 LN> scary story. I"m good friends with the girl and i know my friend wouldn't and isn't gonna let her down. He's outta money right now and i told him i could lend him his half of the money if he wants to get the kid aborted which is what i think they're goin to do. I'm definatly pro choice but what bothers me is I don't know if i should just give him the money or not. I could say no it was your deal so deal with but this has been my best friend since kindergarten. HIs parents are like my parents. We're virtually family ya know? He's a good kid and will take responsibility for his actions so he's not gonna run off on her. Sorry i got off on a tangent HIV: This girl gave blood last year for our school blood drive. It came up possitive for HIV when they tested her blood. It scared the living shit out of a lot of us. She later tested negative to a more accurate test so she's supposedly ok. You dont' know how this shit affects you until it hits you. Be careful everyone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 15:05:45 CDT 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 0 DR> I don't mean to bring you down, but do you have to be so judgemental? Not well.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Goldilocks Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 11 17:23:00 CDT 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 1 BT> Oh, don't feel to bad, he probably just thought you were one of his scores BT> groupies and felt that it didn't warrant a response. :) G> Ya know, you may have a point here... G> I bow humbly before D.R's shining figure G> (think that will get his attention?) Servitude will get you nowhere. However, if you happen to run into a few more groupies, feel free to direct them my way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Thu Sep 12 20:05:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 8 F> Well, you can only have so much in a temporary replacement. I F> couldn't be a permanent replacement. I could only call you up at 3 am, tell F> you it is time to get up. Stuff like that. Thanks but no thanks.... not even Goldi is that mean to me. I like to usually be sound asleep by 3am, I may be a night owl but I'm not that much of one.... Later, Claymoer --Soul searcher, what are you looking for? - Clannad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Thu Sep 12 23:22:22 CDT 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 13 F> couldn't be a permanent replacement. I could only call you up at 3 am, tell F> you it is time to get up. Stuff like that. C> C> Thanks but no thanks.... not even Goldi is that mean to me. I like to C> usually be sound asleep by 3am, I may be a night owl but I'm not that much o C> one.... C> If you like, I could make it 5. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Shadow Wraith Subject: Re: Generation-X YUCK! Date: Fri Sep 13 11:17:52 CDT 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: -11 SW> I hate that generation X bull!!! Just because were not all dying in a SW> senseless war started by someone else, we have no purpose. THEN WHY SW> ARE WE HERE??? YOU JERKS!! BECAUSE YOU BROUGHT US HERE!!!!! I just made generation X by about 20 days. Better that than the Mtv generation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Starfox Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 13 11:20:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: -4 S> HAHAHA zip up yer pants Grow up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Little Niro Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 13 11:23:54 CDT 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: 3 LN> She's pregnant. Got tested positive yesterday. This is not cool. I ragge Does she know what she will do with the baby? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Little Niro Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 13 11:28:19 CDT 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 10 LN> they tested her blood. It scared the living shit out of a lot of us. She LN> later tested negative to a more accurate test so she's supposedly ok. You LN> dont' know how this shit affects you until it hits you. Be careful everyon I have a great friend who thought he had HIV after his boyriend died of it. (He was 14.) He tested positive twice and then got back negative tests after that. He said that it really changed his life for that time of waiting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Starfire Subject: Re: Generation-X YUCK! Date: Fri Sep 13 11:52:38 CDT 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 15 S> I just made generation X by about 20 days. Better that than the Mtv S> generation. DAMN,that_would_make_me_be_in_the_MTV_stage..Y_cant_I_be_In_the_TECHNO_stage? StarFox..Spacebarless ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Starfire Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 13 11:53:55 CDT 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 16 S> HAHAHA zip up yer pants S> S> Grow up. Y?__Ia_m_not_the_only_one_who_posts_1_line_messages. I_dnot_really_need_to..Anyways..___I_dont_give_a_rats_ass_bout_it_anyways.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sat Sep 14 20:00:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 14 F> If you like, I could make it 5. :) 5?? How 'bout 12 noon or something like that? Or couldn't you be that nice to me??? Later, Claymoer --Everything is on its way to somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sun Sep 15 05:04:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 21 F> If you like, I could make it 5. :) C> C> 5?? How 'bout 12 noon or something like that? Or couldn't you be that nice C> me??? C> The subject was that I would bug you when Goldi had to study. 12 noon isn't bugging enough. Oh well, it seems that Goldi is hloding up that need very well by herself. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GOLDILOCKS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 16 09:07:04 CDT 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 12 DR> Servitude will get you nowhere. However, if you happen to run into a few DR> more groupies, feel free to direct them my way. Groupies, hell... I'm starting a Fan Club! *chuckle* Ya better watch out, you just may get tackled some day by a bunch of screaming zealots... Take care Goldi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Wed Sep 18 08:53:24 CDT 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 22 F> The subject was that I would bug you when Goldi had to study. 12 F> noon isn't bugging enough. Oh well, it seems that Goldi is hloding up that F> need very well by herself. :) She is indeed. 12 noon isn't bugging enough, eh? How 'bout 11:00am? Later, Claymoer --Soul searcher, what are you looking for? - Clannad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Goldilocks Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Thu Sep 19 01:41:03 CDT 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 23 DR> Servitude will get you nowhere. However, if you happen to run into a few DR> more groupies, feel free to direct them my way. G> Groupies, hell... G> G> I'm starting a Fan Club! *chuckle* As soon as my web page is up, we can go international. G> Ya better watch out, you just may get tackled some day by a bunch of screami G> zealots... As long as they're willing to shave their heads, lounge around the local airport and pass around the collection plate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GOLDILOCKS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 20 09:27:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 25 DR> As soon as my web page is up, we can go international. Does this mean that you will be getting "invitations" in more than one language? Now THAT could be real interesting! DR> As long as they're willing to shave their heads, lounge around the local DR> airport and pass around the collection plate. For you, Daedalus, we would do anything.... Take care Goldi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Fri Sep 20 11:48:45 CDT 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 25 DR> As soon as my web page is up, we can go international. Speaking of web pages.. freenet.msp.mn.us/people/boie Mine. Not done.. I can make a link to your page from mine if ya want.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Goldilocks Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sat Sep 21 17:52:39 CDT 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 26 DR> As soon as my web page is up, we can go international. G> G> Does this mean that you will be getting "invitations" in more than one G> language? Now THAT could be real interesting! Charua suoro, bien pen phu. The next `wave' on the Internet will be instant translators, the first person who develops one might even be fortunate enough to have the idea stolen by Bill Gates himself! DR> As long as they're willing to shave their heads, lounge around the local DR> airport and pass around the collection plate. G> G> For you, Daedalus, we would do anything.... I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I've taken to saving a few key messages, for later use and/or abuse. My favorite one is a cantidate for State Senate up in White Bear Lake/Vanadis Heights who owes me a favor. I told her that when she wins, I want my own Xavier-Roberts style personalized tax break. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Starfox Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sat Sep 21 17:55:57 CDT 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 27 DR> As soon as my web page is up, we can go international. S> Mine. Not done.. I can make a link to your page from mine if ya want.. Whwn it's working, it's only in the tenative stages right now. As soon as it's done, I'll post the address on Dissent here (we have to have one setup for my Vietnam History class). Here's one bit of text I just got done sprucing up, which I'll be sure to throw online. Some of the text is oddly formatted because it got cut off in this editor, but otherwise the main part of the text is intact: * *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* * Read thoroughly before proceeding! While this warning does not * fully shield me against criminal or civil proceedings, it should * be treated as a good-faith effort to obey the various laws my * fellow world citizens have passed against me recently. * *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* *WARNING!* * V-CHIP CONTENT WARNING: THIS PAGE IS RATED: NC-17, NV, AN, S, NU-1774. [For processing, those reading this document from an archive must set their V-chip to "42-0666."] * UNDER THE TERMS OF THE "TELECOM ACT OF 1996", MINOR CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 18 MAY NOT READ OR HANDLE THIS PAGE'S CONTENT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. [If you are under 18, have your parents delete this message immediately. If you are developmentally disabled, schizophrenic, a veteran of the Panamanian War, suffering from PMS, are under the care of a physician or have voted Libertarian in the past 15 years, then the TELECOM ACT OF 1996 may apply to you as well, even if you are over the age of 18. If this is the case, you must immediately call up your local law enforcement represenative and ask him or her to delete this document for you.] * THIS PAGE COMPLIES WITH THE TERMS OF THE VIRGINIAN "PROTECTION OF CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES ACT OF 1996", SUBSECTION 13. [Each document must include a selected quote from either the Reverand Pat Robertson, former President Ronald Reagan or the 1995 hit movie "Babe".] * THIS PAGE HAS BEEN PRE-APPROVED BY THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE OFFICE OF THE WIFE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT. [As per their request, 158 copies of _Earth in the Balance_ and the entire second printing of _Raising PG kids in an X-Rated Society_ have been safely stored in a time capsule in Northern Minnesota.] * THIS PAGE IS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WILL OF THE FRENCH PARLIAMENT. [Any referrecnes to American culture, trendy catch-phrases or buzz words, or disparaging remarks about Jerry Lewis will be clearly marked and subject to deletion by the proper French authorities.] * THIS PAGE HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE PAPAL AUTHORITY. [In order to allay the concerns of the Vatican clergy no mention will be made of heliocentric theory, biological Darwinism, carbon dating, microwave background radiation, Martian-borne polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, Hubble's constant, or the Dead Sea Scrolls.] * UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE "MERCIFUL SHIELD OF ALLAH" (Praise be to Him!), YOU MAY NOT READ THIS PAGE'S CONTENTS IF YOU ARE A FEMALE OF ANY AGE IN THE FOLLOWING COUNTRIES: [Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Egypt, Jordan, Sudan, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Algeria, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen, Texas, Oman, Syria, Bahrain, or the Palestinian Authority.] * AS PER THE REQUEST OF THE POLISH GOVERNMENT, AT NO TIME WILL THIS PAGE INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: [Opinions expressed on the effectivenesss of the Polish cavalry during the Second World War, or conjecture on how many Polish citizens it takes to screw in a lightbulb.] * DUE TO MY INABILITY TO FULLY TRANSLATE ANY OF THE CHARACTER-BASED ASIAN LANGUAGES, I MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN PROPER OBSERVANCE OF THEIR LAWS. [Thus, to be safe, you must submit any part of this page that you wish to peruse to your local authorities for further filtering.] [Note: If you reside in Singapore, merely by viewing this post you have violated the will of Lee Kwan Yu. Please report to the nearest peace officer to receive your caning.] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE IN HELPING ME TO COMPLY WITH THESE * LAWS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sat Sep 21 19:52:40 CDT 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 28 G> For you, Daedalus, we would do anything.... DR> DR> I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I've taken to saving a few key messages Has Claymoer heard about this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sat Sep 21 19:55:15 CDT 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 29 DR> * THIS PAGE COMPLIES WITH THE TERMS OF THE VIRGINIAN "PROTECTION OF DR> CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES ACT OF 1996", SUBSECTION 13. [Each document DR> must include a selected quote from either the Reverand Pat Robertson, DR> former President Ronald Reagan or the 1995 hit movie "Babe".] DR> God, You're good. This is Really funny. Oh, it wasn't meant to be? Sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Sun Sep 22 07:05:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 31 DR> * THIS PAGE COMPLIES WITH THE TERMS OF THE VIRGINIAN "PROTECTION OF DR> CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES ACT OF 1996", SUBSECTION 13. [Each document DR> must include a selected quote from either the Reverand Pat Robertson, DR> former President Ronald Reagan or the 1995 hit movie "Babe".] DR> F> God, You're good. This is Really funny. The original idea wasn't mine, but 90% of the material is. About the only thing that's left unchanged from the original is the bit about "the merciful shield of Allah". I threw in texas for good measure, though. F> Oh, it wasn't meant to be It's meant to be funny, and depressingly serious at the same time. Nothing there is very far removed from the truth. which makes it sad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 23 08:27:57 CDT 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: 30 G> For you, Daedalus, we would do anything.... DR> DR> I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I've taken to saving a few key messages F> F> Has Claymoer heard about this? Are you saying I might have some competition here??? Later, Claymoer --Soul searcher, what are you looking for? - Clannad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 23 11:06:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: 33 G> For you, Daedalus, we would do anything.... DR> DR> I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I've taken to saving a few key messages F> F> Has Claymoer heard about this? C> C> Are you saying I might have some competition here??? C> I don't know. I think you are both kind of great. Of course, if I were younger, I wouldn't make a chioce. I'd take both of you. ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 23 13:05:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: 28 DR> Bill Gates himself! Profanity is not allowed in this sub. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 23 13:07:43 CDT 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 29 DR> * UNDER THE TERMS OF THE "TELECOM ACT OF 1996", MINOR CHILDREN UNDER DR> THE AGE OF 18 MAY NOT READ OR HANDLE THIS PAGE'S CONTENT UNDER ANY DR> CIRCUMSTANCES. [If you are under 18, have your parents delete this DR> message immediately. If you are developmentally disabled, DR> schizophrenic, a veteran of the Panamanian War, suffering from PMS, DR> are under the care of a physician or have voted Libertarian in the DR> past 15 years, then the TELECOM ACT OF 1996 may apply to you as DR> well, even if you are over the age of 18. If this is the case, you DR> must immediately call up your local law enforcement represenative DR> and ask him or her to delete this document for you.] HAHAHA That is awesome! are you going to have other stuff in it too? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Starfox Subject: Re: Uggghhh.... Date: Mon Sep 23 18:52:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 36 DR> * UNDER THE TERMS OF THE "TELECOM ACT OF 1996", MINOR CHILDREN UNDER DR> THE AGE OF 18 MAY NOT READ OR HANDLE THIS PAGE'S CONTENT UNDER ANY S> HAHAHA That is awesome! are you going to have other stuff in it too? Not sure, the address for my pathetically backwards web page is: http://www.hamline.edu/personal/erschime/index.html I refuse to put up the "under construction" sign; since most of the home pages out there have them, it kind of defeatas the purpose. But yeah, it's is most definately under construction. All that's up right now is a bare skeleton. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: All Subject: withdrawal Date: Sat Dec 21 16:29:44 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: unavailable Okay, folks, time to get back to the "emotional" stuff. I'm writing this mainly because I need to vent, and also because I have learned that admitting something that you know is about to happen reduces the emotional impact of it. Specifically, I am about to spend the next two weeks undergoing emotional withdrawal from a woman whom I care about very much. For ease of reference, let's call her "Susan". I've worked with Susan for about six months now, and I've been sorely attracted to her for most of it. Now, she's about to go on her Christmas vacation and won't be in the office until after New Year's. Not seeing her is going to be tough. The reason it's going to be tough is that I can't admit this to her. I've already tried to give her hints about the way I feel; I had my mother bake a cake so I could give it to her for her birthday, I've left Life-Saver candies and cans of soda (she's a Coke addict) as gifts for her to find. Her response has been reserved. Without saying a word, she has communicated to me that she has no interest in reciprocating my interest. Problem is, she is the sort of person who feels that part of her job is to maintain friendly relationships with her co-workers, even if one happens to be a man whose idea of friendly occasionally is difficult to distinguish from stalking. She's still very polite and even kind to me--we occasionally talk about what we're planning to do (separately) during an upcoming weekend, or jokingly trade witty one-liners back and forth, but only on her terms. I want her to be comfortable; heck, I want her to like me, but it doesn't seem that she has much interest in an over-intellectual, over-weight, occasionally over-aggressive guy. I realize I'm dumping here, but hey, 'tis the season, right? 'Tis better to give than to receive? (Well, not always...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Sat Dec 21 20:02:32 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: 38 DT> The reason it's going to be tough is that I can't admit this to her. I've DT> already tried to give her hints about the way I feel; I had my mother bake DT> back and forth, but only on her terms. I want her to be comfortable; heck, DT> want her to like me, but it doesn't seem that she has much interest in an DT> over-intellectual, over-weight, occasionally over-aggressive guy. DT> You didn't ask for advice, but I am going to give it anyway. Cool it off a bit. You have this 2 weeks to compose yourself, but when she returns, remain friendly, but slightly aloof. She may become intrigued now that you are no longer pursuing her and try to find out why. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Sun Dec 22 12:57:04 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: 39 F> You didn't ask for advice, but I am going to give it anyway. Cool i F> off a bit. You have this 2 weeks to compose yourself, but when she returns, F> remain friendly, but slightly aloof. She may become intrigued now that you F> are no longer pursuing her and try to find out why. Already done. (A friend already offered this advice two months ago when I described the situation to him.) The result: She noticed my reserve and, in a very professional manner, asked me what was wrong. I could have truthfully responded, "Oh, I'm just trying to get over a hopeless crush that I have on you." However, I quickly realized that the purpose of increasing my emotional distance was to invite her to close that distance, not so that I'd have more space in which to pick up speed to throw myself at her. I said that I was going through some personal issues (which was still true but evasive), and, so that she wouldn't think I was obsessing in silence, mentioned that I was just moving into a new apartment (also true). She accepted my explanation at face value, and added that if I ever felt the need, I could meet her in her office to "vent" (the word she actually used) about my problems. [Imagine your a crewmember aboard the Enterprise-D. You have a crush on Counselor Troi, and, upon trying to deal with it, you have the above discussion with her. Does this help personify my dilemma?] Since I didn't want her to think that I have a mental problem, I have since "loosened up" my reserve. My current modus operandi can be summed up by comparing my situation to that of a character on "The Simpsons". During the episode in which Lisa discovers she has a crush on Nelson the bully, she confides her secret with Milhouse. Lisa is perfectly aware that Milhouse has strong feelings for her, but, since she doesn't feel the same way, she has no reservations about asking Milhouse to deliver a note to Nelson on her behalf. Milhouse, initally hesitant, convinces himself to act as messenger by thinking, "Once she realizes you'll do anything for her, she'll respect you." Although this is, by analogy, my current motto, I should note that Milhouse, for all his trouble, wound up hospitalized by Nelson, and received nothing in return but a tearful apology (which he couldn't hear, since the paramedics had stuffed gauze in his ears to stop the bleeding) before Lisa went on to reveal her own feelings for Nelson, which hadn't changed at all. Prospects for improvement in this situation seem slim at best. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Sun Dec 22 15:44:46 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 DT> (also true). She accepted my explanation at face value, and added that if DT> ever felt the need, I could meet her in her office to "vent" (the word she DT> actually used) about my problems. DT> So she left the door open. Maybe all isn't lost. Just cultivate other interests, at least for now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Mon Dec 23 06:26:28 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 40 DT> thinking, "Once she realizes you'll do anything for her, she'll respect you It works sometimes. I went/am going through something quite similar to what you described with the woman I love. Once she realized I loved her she had a lot of respect for me for that. It didn't make her love me any more, but she does respect me for that. DT> [Imagine your a crewmember aboard the Enterprise-D. You have a crush on DT> Counselor Troi, and, upon trying to deal with it, you have the above DT> discussion with her. Does this help personify my dilemma?] Can we imagine Doctor Crusher instead, I really prefer Doctor Crusher. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Mon Dec 23 17:43:42 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 42 DT> thinking, "Once she realizes you'll do anything for her, she'll respect you S> S> It works sometimes. I went/am going through something quite similar to what S> you described with the woman I love. Once she realized I loved her she had S> lot of respect for me for that. It didn't make her love me any more, but sh S> does respect me for that. I hate to be a party-pooper, but in my case I couldn't consider that as "working". If "Susan" didn't love me any more for realizing my love for her (okay! I admitted it!), that means she still doesn't love me. Respect is nice, but it does little to ease loneliness. DT> [Imagine your a crewmember aboard the Enterprise-D. You have a crush on DT> Counselor Troi, and, upon trying to deal with it, you have the above DT> discussion with her. Does this help personify my dilemma?] S> S> Can we imagine Doctor Crusher instead, I really prefer Doctor Crusher. Actually, I like Dr. Crusher better, too. Unfortunately, that doesn't work in this example. You see, Dr. Crusher would sit down with you just over half-way through the episode and tell you, point-blank, "I realize you have a crush on me, and you're just going to have to get over it." (This directness is one reason I prefer Crusher to Troi.) Your emotional pain would be soothed just before the climax of the episode, when the mutual crisis you and Dr. Crusher go through would convince you that, in fact, you would do far better to give up the crush and be friends than to pine away in lonely silence. As for me, I just purchased a copy of "Cyrano de Bergerac" today. I think you know where I stand on this issue now... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Mon Dec 23 17:56:08 CST 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: 41 DT> (also true). She accepted my explanation at face value, and added that if DT> ever felt the need, I could meet her in her office to "vent" (the word she DT> actually used) about my problems. DT> F> So she left the door open. Maybe all isn't lost. Just cultivate F> other interests, at least for now. Other interests? OTHER INTERESTS!? (Sorry about the all-caps, but sometimes a scream is the only language that speaks truth.) Froggy, this area is called "Emotional Cauldron", not "Emotional Washtub" or "Emotional Slow-Running Drinking Fountain". Get into the spirit, OK? Four quick notes: 1) I guess I don't have much choice but to at least attempt to pursue other interests, since "Susan" won't be around to obsess over for nearly two weeks. 2) It is Christmas, and I do have a family, so I won't be thinking of her every single minute. (Probably just half of Christmas Day, for example.) 3) If I told her any of this, she would freak and I might even lose my job. Trust me; this isn't the first time I've been in this situation. 4) She bought me a gift. Granted, I bought her a gift first, and she left mine where she knew she would be safely out of the state before I got to see it, but she still bought me a gift for Christmas. So far as I know, nobody else at work received a gift from her. (And here I thought I might actually get better after two weeks...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Thu Dec 26 08:22:53 CST 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: 43 S> It works sometimes. I went/am going through something quite similar to what S> you described with the woman I love. Once she realized I loved her she had S> lot of respect for me for that. It didn't make her love me any more, but sh S> does respect me for that. DT> DT> I hate to be a party-pooper, but in my case I couldn't consider that as DT> "working". If "Susan" didn't love me any more for realizing my love for he DT> (okay! I admitted it!), that means she still doesn't love me. By the way the quote was a little different from what you wrote. Nothing big, I just saw that episode the same evening and was struck by the difference. Anyway, for me respect is something, a jumping off point, better than having no repect from the woman/girl (so hard to know which one to use for teenagers) and it's a place where love could develop from. I have to withdraw some time I'll continue this in the next message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Thu Dec 26 08:27:37 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: 43 DT> Actually, I like Dr. Crusher better, too. Unfortunately, that doesn't work DT> this example. You see, Dr. Crusher would sit down with you just over half- DT> through the episode and tell you, point-blank, "I realize you have a crush DT> me, and you're just going to have to get over it." (This directness is one DT> reason I prefer Crusher to Troi.) Your emotional pain would be soothed jus DT> before the climax of the episode, when the mutual crisis you and Dr. Crush DT> go through would convince you that, in fact, you would do far better to giv DT> up the crush and be friends than to pine away in lonely silence. I see what you're getting at. Ok. Troi it is then. quite descriptive of your situation. I do prefer Crusher's directness too. DT> As for me, I just purchased a copy of "Cyrano de Bergerac" today. I think DT> know where I stand on this issue now... Play or movie? I think Cyrano is the greatest play/movie ever so maybe that describes my own situation a little. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Thu Dec 26 15:00:04 CST 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 46 DT> As for me, I just purchased a copy of "Cyrano de Bergerac" today. I think DT> know where I stand on this issue now... S> S> Play or movie? I think Cyrano is the greatest play/movie ever so maybe that S> describes my own situation a little. It is a great movie (at least the Jose Ferrar version is a great movie; I haven't seen the Gerard Depardieu version), but I only bought the play. In fact, I bought it with a gift certificate which was "Susan"'s gift to me. Curiouser and curiouser, n'cest pas? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Thu Dec 26 15:40:32 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: 45 S> By the way the quote was a little different from what you wrote. Nothing bi S> I just saw that episode the same evening and was struck by the difference. I thought I remembered the quote accurately, but if you say it was a paraphrase, I'll believe you. I think the spirit of the quote was accurate. S> Anyway, for me respect is something, a jumping off point, better than having S> no repect from the woman/girl (so hard to know which one to use for S> teenagers) and it's a place where love could develop from. Respect is something, but I'd rather have good looks and "eyes like the sea after a storm." Respect can be earned; I'm not sure that love can be "earned". And by the way, always call a teenaged female a woman. She'll eventually find out, and she'll respect you for it. ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Fri Dec 27 11:02:25 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 47 DT> It is a great movie (at least the Jose Ferrar version is a great movie; I DT> haven't seen the Gerard Depardieu version), but I only bought the play. In DT> fact, I bought it with a gift certificate which was "Susan"'s gift to me. The Jose Ferrar version is quite good. I really do prefer the Depardieu version myself, possibly because I like his french. DT> Curiouser and curiouser, n'cest pas? Certainement. very curious, bordering on ironic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Fri Dec 27 11:07:08 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 48 DT> I thought I remembered the quote accurately, but if you say it was a DT> paraphrase, I'll believe you. I think the spirit of the quote was accurate It's just that the way you listed it I interpereted the meaning wrong so i was confused. In retrospect the spirit was accurate. DT> Respect is something, but I'd rather have good looks and "eyes like the se DT> after a storm." Respect can be earned; I'm not sure that love can be DT> "earned". DT> DT> And by the way, always call a teenaged female a woman. She'll eventually DT> find out, and she'll respect you for it. ;) No love can't be earned, but respect is a good starting point. I started off with my love only respecting me for my feelings and yet yesterday she told me that she loves me, so from my pespective respect is, if not the prize, a reasonable place to start. Of course I too prefer love to respect I'd usually use woman out of respect. Many adults I know often refer to a teenaged female as a girl, so I'm never quite sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: withdrawal Date: Fri Dec 27 13:17:18 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 50 DT> Respect is something, but I'd rather have good looks and "eyes like the se DT> after a storm." Respect can be earned; I'm not sure that love can be DT> "earned". S> No love can't be earned, but respect is a good starting point. I started of S> with my love only respecting me for my feelings and yet yesterday she told m S> that she loves me, so from my pespective respect is, if not the prize, a S> reasonable place to start. Of course I too prefer love to respect Ah, my son, you are blessed indeed. Now you can either let it grow as it will, and be content even if the vine proves dry and bitter in time, or you can do as I have done in the past and question your love so rigorously that it falls to dust in your hands. Remember, "true love" is a storybook thing; one should no more expect to find it than one would expect to find a dragon in the bathtub. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: / Date: Mon Dec 30 05:07:34 CST 1996 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: 51 DT> Ah, my son, you are blessed indeed. Now you can either let it grow as it DT> will, and be content even if the vine proves dry and bitter in time, or you DT> can do as I have done in the past and question your love so rigorously that DT> falls to dust in your hands. I am indeed blessed. I think I'm going to let it grow as it will. I'm not so fond of dust. DT> Remember, "true love" is a storybook thing; one should no more expect to fi DT> it than one would expect to find a dragon in the bathtub. Wait, you mean you can't find dragons in bathtubs?! I'm so disillusioned, I've been waiting for so long and now you tell me I can't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: / Date: Mon Dec 30 14:11:20 CST 1996 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: 52 DT> Remember, "true love" is a storybook thing; one should no more expect to fi DT> it than one would expect to find a dragon in the bathtub. S> Wait, you mean you can't find dragons in bathtubs?! I'm so disillusioned, S> I've been waiting for so long and now you tell me I can't. I didn't say you couldn't, and I didn't even say I couldn't; I just implied that "one" shouldn't expect it. Miracles do happen, but don't hold your breath waiting for them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: / Date: Tue Dec 31 08:57:50 CST 1996 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: 53 DT> I didn't say you couldn't, and I didn't even say I couldn't; I just implied DT> that "one" shouldn't expect it. Miracles do happen, but don't hold your DT> breath waiting for them. Oh ok, but as long as there's still the chance of dragons then I'm ok. I also thought about the love thing from the message two back. I'm wondering, you speak of the love in storybooks and "true love" as if they were the same thing. Do you pair storybook love and "true love" as being the same. Because if you pair storybook love and "true love" I'd have to say I believe them to be possible. I believe that the kind of love in storybooks is possible, and if the "true love" were paired with it then I would have to say the same of it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: / Date: Sun Jan 05 19:29:29 CST 1997 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: 53 DT> Remember, "true love" is a storybook thing; one should no more expect to fi DT> it than one would expect to find a dragon in the bathtub. DT> S> Wait, you mean you can't find dragons in bathtubs?! I'm so disillusioned, S> I've been waiting for so long and now you tell me I can't. DT> DT> I didn't say you couldn't, and I didn't even say I couldn't; I just implied DT> that "one" shouldn't expect it. Miracles do happen, but don't hold your DT> breath waiting for them. * actually, they happen quite often...but usually when you're neither expecting nor waiting for them. :) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Miracles... Date: Mon Jan 06 15:23:30 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: unavailable mir-a-cle (MEER-uh-cull) n. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature, held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. (from "The American Heritage College Dictionary") I do not consider any of the following to be miracles: -A child is born to healthy parents. -Money is discovered at just the moment when it will come in handy. -An attractive person finds an equally attractive mate. -A hard-working person is successful. -A positive event occurs completely by chance. (example: someone wins the lottery) None of these events are inexplicable by the laws of nature; in fact, most of them are expected given the laws of nature as we understand them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: / Date: Mon Jan 06 15:33:01 CST 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: 54 S> I'm wondering, you S> speak of the love in storybooks and "true love" as if they were the same S> thing. Do you pair storybook love and "true love" as being the same. I do. I think most people do. I think the key part is "happily ever after". "True love" is like that, I think. You've found the person you were "meant to be with", and the rest of your life is just painting gold onto lilies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: / Date: Tue Jan 07 15:37:22 CST 1997 Message number: 58 Reply to message number: 57 S> I'm wondering, you S> speak of the love in storybooks and "true love" as if they were the same S> thing. Do you pair storybook love and "true love" as being the same. DT> DT> I do. I think most people do. I think the key part is "happily ever after DT> "True love" is like that, I think. You've found the person you were "meant DT> be with", and the rest of your life is just painting gold onto lilies. Well then, I do think "true love" is possible. Of course simply by nature problems will arise, but the value of the love can be still true and unwavering, there are simply problems that arise between the two that must be resolved, but the problems needn't have any effect upon the value of the love. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: / Date: Wed Jan 08 16:28:38 CST 1997 Message number: 59 Reply to message number: 58 DT> I do. I think most people do. I think the key part is "happily ever after DT> "True love" is like that, I think. You've found the person you were "meant DT> be with", and the rest of your life is just painting gold onto lilies. S> Well then, I do think "true love" is possible. Of course simply by nature S> problems will arise, but the value of the love can be still true and S> unwavering, there are simply problems that arise between the two that must b S> resolved, but the problems needn't have any effect upon the value of the lov Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing after all. There are no problems in "true love"; it isn't the same as being "true to your love". I think most people would be as realistic as you and admit that, if every moment of their lives aren't a romantic wonderland, then that's OK, it doesn't mean I don't love my partner. What I'm talking about is the sort of love everybody thinks they can find, but nobody does. You find that one person that you're "supposed" to be with, and your entire life turns out great. You never argue, you never fight, you're never jealous of each other, every day just finds you both falling farther and farther in love. This is the sort of thing 19th century poets raved about, and I guess it's what I'm waiting for. Perhaps I shouldn't complain so much that I haven't found it; it does seem to be pretty rare. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: / Date: Thu Jan 09 13:57:11 CST 1997 Message number: 60 Reply to message number: 59 DT> Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing after all. There are no DT> problems in "true love"; it isn't the same as being "true to your love". I DT> think most people would be as realistic as you and admit that, if every mom DT> of their lives aren't a romantic wonderland, then that's OK, it doesn't mea DT> don't love my partner. Ok, I see how you're defining true love. I disagree with the definition. I understand the whole fairy tale everything is great always concept, but I'd seperate the perfect fairy tale where everyone is always happy from the words "true love" because the words standing alone I believe have different implications than always happy forever. Now I'm just getting into word definitions, and that's pretty boring. DT> What I'm talking about is the sort of love everybody thinks they can find, DT> nobody does. You find that one person that you're "supposed" to be with, a DT> your entire life turns out great. You never argue, you never fight, you're DT> never jealous of each other, every day just finds you both falling farther DT> farther in love. This is the sort of thing 19th century poets raved about, DT> and I guess it's what I'm waiting for. Perhaps I shouldn't complain so muc DT> that I haven't found it; it does seem to be pretty rare. 19th century poets were incredible. I love Tennyson, he's my favorite poet after Shakespeare. Anyways, I do think there are people in the world we are "supposed to be with" though not by some divine plan, but by general personality traits. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Sun Jan 12 05:56:46 CST 1997 Message number: 61 Reply to message number: 56 DT> mir-a-cle (MEER-uh-cull) n. DT> An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature, held to be DT> supernatural in origin or an act of God. DT> DT> (from "The American Heritage College Dictionary") DT> DT> I do not consider any of the following to be miracles: DT> DT> -A child is born to healthy parents. DT> DT> -Money is discovered at just the moment when it will come in handy. DT> DT> -An attractive person finds an equally attractive mate. DT> DT> -A hard-working person is successful. DT> DT> -A positive event occurs completely by chance. (example: someone wins the DT> lottery) * have it your way, sir... considering what chaos things would be if everything were subject to nothing but laws of chance, it would be a total miracle if we didn't get killed every time we left the house...or did anything that had the potential of doing us damage (things like turning on an electric light, getting into an automobile, dealing with anything with moving parts, and god KNOWS dealing with living human beings, all of whom have the potential to cork on you at any given time-- in my perhaps non-dictionary definition, *any* act of kindness is a miracle. and i'll go to my grave believing it. random acts of kindness? perhaps. --=c=-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Sun Jan 12 17:41:33 CST 1997 Message number: 62 Reply to message number: 61 C> have it your way, sir... considering what chaos things would be if everythin C> were subject to nothing but laws of chance, it would be a total miracle if w C> didn't get killed every time we left the house... And you may have it your way. I suppose if you begin with the premise that the laws of nature dictate that leaving the house results in death, then any good thing that happens to you (or even any bad thing you avoid) becomes an act of God. C> in my perhaps non-dictionary definition, *any* act of kindness is a miracle. C> and i'll go to my grave believing it. You seem to be saying that there's some law of nature which dictates that people cannot be kind to one another. That view seems incredibly pessimistic and fatalistic to me. I certainly hope you don't live your life by this law. I admit, given a long enough dive into metaphysical philosophy, and it becomes really tough to justify things like rational behavior, love, and existence in terms of "natural law". Still, I can't think of any act of kindness as a miracle; if miracles are everywhere, then they are cheap and unexceptional, and God takes responsibility for all our actions (it is a miracle that I got out of bed when the alarm woke me this morning, praise be to God). C> random acts of kindness? perhaps. Sure, they're out there. And they're not so inexplicable as you might think. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Mon Jan 13 17:39:02 CST 1997 Message number: 63 Reply to message number: 62 DT> And you may have it your way. I suppose if you begin with the premise that DT> the laws of nature dictate that leaving the house results in death, then an DT> good thing that happens to you (or even any bad thing you avoid) becomes an DT> act of God. * no, i was implying the opposite, actually- the laws of chance make everything a 50-50 crapshoot. C> in my perhaps non-dictionary definition, *any* act of kindness is a miracle. C> and i'll go to my grave believing it. DT> DT> You seem to be saying that there's some law of nature which dictates that DT> people cannot be kind to one another. That view seems incredibly pessimist DT> and fatalistic to me. I certainly hope you don't live your life by this la * i didn't write that clearly enough to say what i meant. i mean that when wonderful things happen- and they do- they should be appreciated as something above and beyond random chance or dumb luck- and i call that a miracle to be appreciated. i didn't mean that it was astounding that anything good ever happened. * C> random acts of kindness? perhaps. DT> DT> Sure, they're out there. And they're not so inexplicable as you might thin * you know, oddly enough, i think we agree with one another. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Tue Jan 14 15:35:34 CST 1997 Message number: 64 Reply to message number: 63 DT> I suppose if you begin with the premise that DT> the laws of nature dictate that leaving the house results in death, then an DT> good thing that happens to you (or even any bad thing you avoid) becomes an DT> act of God. C> no, i was implying the opposite, actually- the laws of chance make everythin C> a 50-50 crapshoot. Just because something can be affected by the laws of chance doesn't mean that thing is _determined_ by the laws of chance. And just because something is determined by the laws of chance, that doesn't mean the probability has to be 50-50. Most situations are so complex that, although they aren't determined by chance, it is just as accurate as not to say that chance applies. For example, if you go into the library to find a book, there are a lot of variables that determine if you will find it. First, the library must carry the book, which is based on the type and subject of the book, the book's competitors, the book's popularity, and other things. Assuming the book is even carried in the library, then the book must be on the shelf: has someone else just checked it out, or just returned it (in which case the book is waiting to be reshelved and effectively unavailable)? Is someone else in the library reading the book at a table? Has the book been stolen? Has it been damaged and thrown out? Each of these possibilities has other things that affect the likelihood that it has occurred: a more popular book is more likely to be ordered by the library, but less likely to be on the shelf (since it is more likely to be checked out). Few of these things are determined by chance, but all are described by chance. C> in my perhaps non-dictionary definition, *any* act of kindness is a miracle. C> and i'll go to my grave believing it. C> i didn't write that clearly enough to say what i meant. i mean that when C> wonderful things happen- and they do- they should be appreciated as somethin C> above and beyond random chance or dumb luck- and i call that a miracle to be C> appreciated. And I say when wonderful things happen that are above and beyond random chance or dumb luck, but are still expected given the right circumstances, those things are not miracles, but commonplace events. Calling every birth a miracle, for example, cheapens both births and miracles. Maybe I'm just trying too hard to be precise, but I think lack of precision is a problem in society today. People are easily deluded by advertisers, politicians, and other con artists because they aren't demanding enough in their precision; they view the work involved in being precise as being "nerdy" or "stuck-up". C> you know, oddly enough, i think we agree with one another. On some level, we do. At least we both agree that miracles exist and are possible. We both agree that miracles are good things (it is not a miracle, for example, to lose your entire family in a fiery car crash--well, at least is isn't under normal circumstances). Deeper understandings always grow from fundamental agreements. I believe that much, at least. Thanks for your argument. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Wed Jan 15 06:26:57 CST 1997 Message number: 65 Reply to message number: 64 DT> And I say when wonderful things happen that are above and beyond random cha DT> or dumb luck, but are still expected given the right circumstances, those DT> things are not miracles, but commonplace events. Calling every birth a DT> miracle, for example, cheapens both births and miracles. Maybe I'm just DT> trying too hard to be precise, but I think lack of precision is a problem i DT> society today. People are easily deluded by advertisers, politicians, and DT> other con artists because they aren't demanding enough in their precision; DT> they view the work involved in being precise as being "nerdy" or "stuck-up" DT> C> you know, oddly enough, i think we agree with one another. DT> DT> On some level, we do. At least we both agree that miracles exist and are DT> possible. We both agree that miracles are good things (it is not a miracle DT> for example, to lose your entire family in a fiery car crash--well, at leas DT> is isn't under normal circumstances). DT> DT> Deeper understandings always grow from fundamental agreements. I believe t DT> much, at least. Thanks for your argument. * yes, you're absolutely right, there. as a writer, i try for precision in lan guage, and think my language *is* precise...until i realize, of course, that i'm defining every word as a use it- and it might not be the way you see them at all. i agree with you, though, no, as far as the use of the word 'miracle.' perhaps i might be thinking of serendipity- when something good happens, out of the blue. and that's not a full-fledged 'miracle', it's just a time when chance or coincidence work in one's own favor. i 've always thought that the way the human body works is a miracle- but i see now that by your definition, it's not a miracle at all, if it's just doing, quietly and complacently, what it was designed to do. now... when my sister's ford escort works right, now THAT's a *miracle." hehehe -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Miracles... Date: Thu Jan 16 15:22:59 CST 1997 Message number: 66 Reply to message number: 65 C> yes, you're absolutely right, there. as a writer, i try for precision in lan C> guage, and think my language *is* precise...until i realize, of course, that C> i'm defining every word as a use it- and it might not be the way you see the C> at all. Part of the reason I'm so anal about using dictionary definitions, by the way. At least a dictionary definition is _supposed_ to be based on a general agreement about word meanings. Otherwise, you may as well be speaking in Ebonics. C> i agree with you, though, no, as far as the use of the word 'miracle.' perha C> i might be thinking of serendipity- when something good happens, out of the C> blue. and that's not a full-fledged 'miracle', it's just a time when chance C> coincidence work in one's own favor. Serendipity is a good way to describe most of what many people call "miracles". You sit down on the bus and discover that the person next to you is an old high-school friend, for example. Looking for one thing, you find something else that's better. Still, I think another word you used works even better in this context: coincidence. C> 've always thought that the way the human body works is a miracle- but i see C> now that by your definition, it's not a miracle at all, if it's just doing, C> quietly and complacently, what it was designed to do. You might say that the fact that the human body works at all is a miracle; paleobiologists still haven't quite figured out how a lava-ball in space became home to a self-aware species. But once you know that the human body does work, it's just nuts and bolts. C> when my sister's ford escort works right, now THAT's a *miracle." C> hehehe Ha, ha! Skewer them industrial bad-boys, Cosima! We're with ya!