------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Cloud of Unknowing Date: Fri Oct 28 19:45:40 CDT 1994 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable Education: Right or privilege? Is it a way for society to control the minds of the young, or something necessary to instill the knowledge and values of our nation and society? This base is for the discussion of education, public and private; K-12 and higher education. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Specter Subject: Re: education Date: Mon Aug 19 11:34:54 CDT 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: -1 S> A friend of mine and myself once held a belief that under the present method S> of teaching and the present curriculum we (he and I) could stop going to S> school and spend our time reading material we found to be relevant. With th S> reading and ongoing symposiums we could learn more relevant information than S> would be taught in school, and we could learn that information in less time S> than we would spend in school. Any thoughts... I think this is certainly true to an extent, I made an observation back in 6th grade that I have stood by ever since which was that I often learn more on my own after school than I did during the entire day. But what school DOES offer at least is a variety, it introduces you to things and subjects that you might not even know exist or know much about, thereby leading your interest in that direction. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 11:36:31 CDT 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: 0 F> We try to be kind of easy on grammar around here. So many of us F> spell so badly that is all we would be talking about. :) if any of you knew me from the cits I call, you'd know that was a joke. :) F> I dunno. 666 might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if anyo F> else REALLY knows what it means. I know a lot of people think they do. It is suposedly the number gived to satan in revelation. I have no proof of this, besides all the english translation I've seen, but can't back it up, seeing how: a) I don't know greek b) I don't have a copy of the bible in greek c) I don't know anything about greek numerology. so there. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 11:36:42 CDT 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: 0 F> I dunno. 666 might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if anyo F> else REALLY knows what it means. I know a lot of people think they do. Knowledge is good. I was always told that it was "the mark of the beast", hence Satan. But seeing as how it is a biblical referance, and you know more about ancient religions than anyone I know of, you probably know what it really means? Tell, share, enlighten! *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: education Date: Mon Aug 19 11:37:12 CDT 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 1 F> That is probably true, but if you did, you would already have F> demonstrated the the education you have already received was successful -- F> that it instilled in you a desire to learn and gave you the tools to do it. F> That is the primary purpose of all education. Well there's a nice classic paradox for you.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 17:54:37 CDT 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: 3 RT> It is suposedly the number gived to satan in revelation. I have no proof o RT> this, besides all the english translation I've seen, but can't back it up, RT> seeing how: RT> RT> a) I don't know greek RT> b) I don't have a copy of the bible in greek RT> c) I don't know anything about greek numerology. RT> I don't believe this for a second. I *have read it from the Greek* with a group, although I do not have a Greek text yet. I believe that it is an allegory written to disguise basic Gnostic theology, ehich did include a lot of numerolog . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 18:49:56 CDT 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 4 F> I dunno. 666 might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if anyo F> else REALLY knows what it means. I know a lot of people think they do. Froggy gave me the go-ahead to post a private reply she sent to Starfox regarding this. Date: 10:14 pm Mon Aug 19, 1996 Number : 151 of 154 From: Froggy Base : Private Mail To : Starfox Refer #: None Subj: Re: 666 Replies: None Stat: Normal Origin : Local F> I dunno. 666 might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if F> else REALLY knows what it means. I know a lot of people think they do. S> S> WHAT WHAT!! TELL ME!! PLEASE The "myth" is that it means Satan, because it is described in the *Book of Revelations* as the "mark of the beast." But I don't think this is what it was meant to mean, and neither do many scholats. Remember that the Jews were very superstitious, especially about numbers. They actually changed dates of battles and things if they thought that the number represented by the actual date was unlucky. Like what we do where no tall motel has a 13th floor. Only a 12th, then a 14th. The Jews based their canon, or Mosaic Law, on the writings of Mosas (the Torah), whose personal experience was in Egyption religion and culture, as well as the Q'uballah, the ancient religious code of the Jews. Both of these cultures had a tradion of numerology, and in both of them, the 6 is a positive, rather than a satanic meaning. In the Q'uballah, the ner 6 is defined in the "Sephirotic Tree," or Tree of Life. The Tree is also the foundation for a traditional Tarot deck. the 6 means, Beauty, basically the number for the Christ. The situation is that a lot of us do not think that the *book of Revelations is about the final War between Jesus and the angels of Satan, as others think it is. Among both Jewish and Christian groups, there were people called "Gnostics," who had one WEIRD set of beliefs. Noteworthy among them is the belief that the God, JHVH, described as "God" in our Bible, is a phony and an interloper. That there is one Great God behind him/her, and That is the real God, not this one called JHVH. The Gnostics thought that JHVH was a female. Now, open your Bible to Revelations 17. It says "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, said to me, 'Come, I will show you the punishment of the Great Prostitute, who sits on the many waters. With her the kings of the world committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.'" And the rest is very strange. During the first couple of centuries after the death of Christ, there were horrible disagrements, including murders, among Christians. Many members and most of the writings of the Gmostics were destroyed, and their opponents, the Papists, took the lead of the early Christians. Many of us think that the *Gospel of Thomas,* and the book of *Revelations* were Gnostics. Thomas was excluded from the Bible, even though some scholars think it may be the ONLY gospel actually written by a real apostle. If you read *Revelations,* you will see that it is an allegory, with lots of numbers and graphic-seeming images, such as a red beast with seven heads and ten horns, and covered with blasphemous names. This is charactierstic of underground writing, because it was written to hide its real source, and that is why it was not destroyed. The *Gospel of Thomas* is similar, but slightdifferent. In other words, these books were not written by John, in Greek, fot the average new Christian, as purported. They are actually encryptions, written by Gnostics, for other Gnostics, who were able to decode and understand it, where obviously the Papists weren't. Then look at the books of John, and see if they reallo look like they were written by the same writer as *Revelations.* I don't think so. So, as I understand it, the Gnostic concept of the Godhead, or "real" God, is a triune. It consists of the Head, or Spirit, combined with the female aspect and the male aspect. It is beautiful and powerful, and is represented by triune beauty -- 666. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 18:52:16 CDT 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 7 BT> So, as I understand it, the Gnostic concept of the Godhead, or "re BT> God, is a triune. It consists of the Head, or Spirit, combined with the BT> female aspect and the male aspect. It is beautiful and powerful, and is BT> represented by triune beauty -- 666. I think I have a rough understanding of what your saying - but not completly. I still wouldn't know how to explain this to my sunday school teacher. I know I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for beauty and Christ? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 19:06:14 CDT 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 8 BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for BT> beauty and Christ? I interpedid it as 666 Being the mark of a false god, more detailed understanding i have, but that is the bottom line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Aug 19 21:23:51 CDT 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 0 F> I dunno. 666 might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if anyo F> else REALLY knows what it means. I know a lot of people think they do. Well in the Biblical sense it the mark of the beast, the mark of man. Later, Claymoer --Soul searcher, what are you looking for? - Clannad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Claymoer Subject: careen down highway 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 01:02:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 10 Well, to be honest, the reason I'm so hung up on that number, and why I notice it so much is just because of the shock value it presents to christians. As most christians not only have not read every branch of the bible, but in most cases have not read THE BIBLE. They just know that 666 is bad. Just like gays are bad. But I do have to admit that Revolations (sp) was written rather well, compared to other christian books. If you look at, say, the New Testament, it's a real low water mark for theology books, expecially such a popular one! -lNeOmMoEnL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 02:53:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 8 BT> I think I have a rough understanding of what your saying - but not completl BT> I still wouldn't know how to explain this to my sunday school teacher. I k BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for BT> beauty and Christ? BT> The only way your sunday school teacher would understand it is if s/he had some knowledge of the Gnostics, which most do not. I am questioning the *whole* interpretation of the *Book of Revelations,* as it is tossed around today. I am saying that it COULD be interpreted as a Gnostic work that is describing a war between the *real* God, and the phony God, JHVH, where the beast, is JHVH, and the 666 refers to the "Christ" spirit" of JHVH. This is not to suggest that this is the same Christ that we know, although that is its hidden meaning. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfox Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 02:54:03 CDT 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 9 BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for BT> beauty and Christ? S> S> I interpedid it as 666 Being the mark of a false god, more detailed S> understanding i have, but that is the bottom line. That is what the Gnostics would say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Lemon Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 03:27:47 CDT 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 11 L> christians. As most christians not only have not read every branch of the L> bible, but in most cases have not read THE BIBLE. They just know that 666 is L> bad. Just like gays are bad. But I do have to admit that Revolations (sp) wa SOME Christians also do nor realize that Jesus was an adept in Egyptian magic, but the Knights Templar did. :) It is irritating that so many would pounce on certain selected phrases and conveniently ignore the rest. Let us look at the sections of the Torah that deal with punishments demanded by God for certain Acts, beginning at Leviticus 18:9. If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death . . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife -- with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. If a man sleeps with his father's life, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and woman must be put to death. If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion . . . IF A MAN LIES WITH A MAN AS ONE LIES WITH A WOMAN,BOTH OF THEM HAVE DONE WHAT IS DETESTABLE. THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH . . . If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire . . If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her . . . both of them must be cut off from their people. Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your father or your mother. If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible. If a man marries his brother's wife,it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother . . . Keep all my decrees and laws . . . I think it is interesting how much energy people put into this one decree, condemning gays, without also noticing that, according to God's law, having a fling with the neighbor woman carries the same punishment. Stealing you sister-in-law is also out. Also interestingly, I have found no preclusion to a woman sleeping with another woman, so apparently lesbians are home free. :) There are also VERY specific instructions about details like how to cut your hair, cook your food, treat people who are crippled or diseased, and how the robed of the priest should be made. But I notice that a lot of people claim that the people who violate that one decree that I have capitalized, are guilty, and that they don't think that THEY are required to obey the rest. Hmmm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Lemon Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 11:34:35 CDT 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 11 L> Well, to be honest, the reason I'm so hung up on that number, and why I L> notice it so much is just because of the shock value it presents to L> christians. As most christians not only have not read every branch of the L> bible, but in most cases have not read THE BIBLE. They just know that 666 is L> bad. Just like gays are bad. But I do have to admit that Revolations (sp) wa L> written rather well, compared to other christian books. If you look at, say, L> the New Testament, it's a real low water mark for theology books, expecially L> such a popular one! I wouldn't say that its a low watermark. Just extremely overated. I would say the biggest reason that Revelations is so popular is beacuse there is alot in there that nobody knows for sure what it all means. Scholars have been pondering this for centuries and they still don't have it figured out. Although we do have a pretty good idea that 666 represents the mark of the beast and the mark of man. Later, Claymoer --Everything is on its way to somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 13:45:43 CDT 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 14 F> :) There are also VERY specific instructions about details like how to cut F> your hair, cook your food, treat people who are crippled or diseased, and ho F> the robed of the priest should be made. But I notice that a lot of people F> claim that the people who violate that one decree that I have capitalized, a F> guilty, and that they don't think that THEY are required to obey the rest. F> Hmmm. This comes partly from the way modern Christianity has evolved. Paul believed that the Covenent Christ established overturned many of the 613 laws of God, establishing new ones as written in the New Testament. But modern Christianity has kept some of these, and did away with others. rev. thorn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 13:46:56 CDT 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: 8 BT> So, as I understand it, the Gnostic concept of the Godhead, or "re BT> God, is a triune. It consists of the Head, or Spirit, combined with the BT> female aspect and the male aspect. It is beautiful and powerful, and is BT> represented by triune beauty -- 666. BT> BT> I think I have a rough understanding of what your saying - but not completl BT> I still wouldn't know how to explain this to my sunday school teacher. I k BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for BT> beauty and Christ? It's also interesting to point out that, this JHVH was an igorant creator god, and the serpent in the garden of Eden was interpreted as being Christ, trying to give Adam and Eve knowledge. Crazy stuff. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: FROGGY Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 15:57:47 CDT 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: unavailable F>BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands for >BT> beauty and Christ? >S> >S> I interpedid it as 666 Being the mark of a false god, more detailed >S> understanding i have, but that is the bottom line. F> That is what the Gnostics would say. So was I wrong? Or write? --- ž QMPro 1.53 ž 2400 baud makes you want to get out and push. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: SPECTER Subject: Re: education Date: Tue Aug 20 18:23:18 CDT 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to All <=- we could Sp> learn that information in less time than we would spend in school. Sp> Any thoughts... I agree. For certain students, public schools are not conducive to learning. Many schools hinder students. But I also agree with Froggy that you did obtain the ability to read and an awareness about education in a school--this has assisted you to learn on your own. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 19:55:37 CDT 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 16 RT> This comes partly from the way modern Christianity has evolved. Paul belie RT> that the Covenent Christ established overturned many of the 613 laws of God RT> establishing new ones as written in the New Testament. But modern RT> Christianity has kept some of these, and did away with others. RT> Thank you, but I believe that we are all intended to decide for ourselves how to follow God's law. My personal system *does* include much of the OT, most of the direct teachings of Jesus, and very little from Paul. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfox Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Aug 20 19:58:22 CDT 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 18 S> F>BT> I'm off here, but are you saying that the number 666 actually stands f S> >BT> beauty and Christ? S> >S> S> >S> I interpedid it as 666 Being the mark of a false god, more detailed S> >S> understanding i have, but that is the bottom line. S> F> That is what the Gnostics would say. S> S> So was I wrong? Or write? Everything is a matter of opinion. That is basically what I described, and reasonably reflects the philosophy of the Gnostics, ancient and current. Of course, most conventional churches will not agree with this interpretation, and some would be very upset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Froggy Subject: 6x111 Date: Wed Aug 21 03:48:27 CDT 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 14 Wow, thanks a lot. That was a really helpful list (even though my screen grab is fucked up right now) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: education Date: Wed Aug 21 04:56:40 CDT 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 19 DD> I agree. For certain students, public schools are not conducive to learnin DD> Many schools hinder students. But I also agree with Froggy that you did DD> obtain the ability to read and an awareness about education in a school--th DD> has assisted you to learn on your own. Oh yes, I recognize and value my primary and some of my secondary education. Yes they have definitely given me the ability to learn more on my own. but now that I am able to learn more on my own, I was stating that I have reached a level where I could learn more on my own from private reading and symposium with friends at the same level than I could in a room where the same material was lectured over four or more times. for example... In my chemistry class we would spend over a week and a half discussing one topic that the top students figured out the first day. My friends and I could have figured out that same topic on our own in the same amount of time and used the leftover time to advance our knowledge even farther. Being locked in a room and forced to continue watching the teacher on a subject we had already mastered did nothing for us. Specter -May benevolence and reason shelter you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: SPECTER Subject: education Date: Thu Aug 22 18:02:21 CDT 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to All <=- Sp> A friend of mine and myself once held a belief that under the present Sp> methods of teaching and the present curriculum we (he and I) could Sp> stop going to school and spend our time reading material we found to Sp> be relevant. With the reading and ongoing symposiums we could learn Sp> more relevant information than would be taught in school, and we could Sp> learn that information in less time than we would spend in school. Sp> Any thoughts... I agree with you. In the current education system individual students really don't matter. Are system is based upon "classrooms" of same-age students studing one subject after another at a slow pace. After the proper skills are gained maybe we should allowed individual students to go on separate paths to obtaining the qualifications for the Highschool diploma. Let those who want to take a deliberately long path to a High School Diploma take that path. Let those who can go at their own pace to obtain the qualifications for a High School Dipolma. I've learned and retained more knowledge outside of school than what I learned while in the schools. ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Thu Aug 22 19:06:38 CDT 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 14 F> I think it is interesting how much energy people put into this one F> decree, condemning gays, without also noticing that, according to God's law, F> having a fling with the neighbor woman carries the same punishment. Stealing There are also about 20 other places that say that a man shall not lie with another man. No where in my reading have I ever heard any mention of women in this case. But in all cases of the usage of this word translated as "lie in the biblical sense" accept one were in my opinion traanslated in correctly. Also the laws that were given in Leviticus were given for the pastors of the time the Levites. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Thu Aug 22 19:08:27 CDT 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 17 RT> It's also interesting to point out that, this JHVH was an igorant creator g RT> and the serpent in the garden of Eden was interpreted as being Christ, tryi RT> to give Adam and Eve knowledge. Crazy stuff. Yes the serpent tricked eve by telling her the truth as opposed to god's way of dealing with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: education Date: Fri Aug 23 05:00:02 CDT 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 24 S> After the proper skills are gained maybe we should allowed S> individual students to go on separate paths to obtaining the S> qualifications for the Highschool diploma. S> S> Let those who want to take a deliberately long path to a High S> School Diploma take that path. S> Let those who can go at their own pace to obtain the qualifications S> for a High School Dipolma. I like your suggestion. If the schools had implemented a program similar to that one years ago, my friend and I might not have had the discussion about leaving school to learn more. We might have been able to satisfy our abilities to learn in school. I would certainly support anything that allowed students to move forward at their own pace instead of a pace set by the lowest ten percent of the class. Specter -May benevolence and reason guide you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: careen down highway 666 Date: Fri Aug 23 06:12:15 CDT 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 25 S> There are also about 20 other places that say that a man shall not lie with S> another man. No where in my reading have I ever heard any mention of women i S> this case. But in all cases of the usage of this word translated as "lie in S> the biblical sense" accept one were in my opinion traanslated in correctly. S> Also the laws that were given in Leviticus were given for the pastors of the S> time the Levites. I know the same warning is repeated in other places, notably in Deuteronomy and Samuel. Obviously, from the context of the other warnings I listed, this warning is about sex. The Book of Leviticus was addressed to the Levites, as the spiritual head or priesthood of the Israelites, but the intention was that they were to teach the Israelites that *all* of these applied to *all* of them. My point was that I think it is hypocritical for right-wing Christians to pick out one of these, say that all gays are going to burn in hell, and ignore the other ones that might apply to *them.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: SPECTER Subject: Re: education Date: Fri Aug 23 12:34:40 CDT 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter : Sp> A friend of mine and myself once held a belief that under the present Sp> methods of teaching and the present curriculum we (he and I) could Sp> stop going to school and spend our time reading material we found to Sp> be relevant. With the reading and ongoing symposiums we could learn Sp> more relevant information than would be taught in school, and we could Sp> learn that information in less time than we would spend in school. Sp> Any thoughts... The optimist in me says that you get more from school than a book-type education. You also get to interact with people and learn how to act socially with diverse groups of people. The pessimist in me says that you wouldn't be indocreinated into the system correctly, and would grow to be a troublemaker. ... Privatize the profits. Socialize the costs. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: SPECTER Subject: Re: education Date: Sat Aug 24 03:37:08 CDT 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to All <=- we could Sp> learn that information in less time than we would spend in school. Sp> Any thoughts... I agree. For certain students, public schools are not conducive to learning. Many schools hinder students. But I also agree with Froggy that you did obtain the ability to read and an awareness about education in a school--this has assisted you to learn on your own. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: SPECTER Subject: Re: education Date: Sat Aug 24 03:37:12 CDT 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to Daring Diane J. <=- DD> I agree. For certain students, public schools are not conducive to learn My friends and I could have figured out that same Sp> topic on our own in the same amount of time and used the leftover time Sp> to advance our knowledge even farther. Being locked in a room and Sp> forced to continue watching the teacher on a subject we had already Sp> mastered did nothing for us. Yup, precisely my perspective: school now hinders students like you. I suffered through the same torture when I was in school. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: education Date: Sat Aug 24 05:04:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 29 DR> The optimist in me says that you get more from school than a book-type DR> education. You also get to interact with people and learn how to act DR> socially with diverse groups of people. i think here a healthy dose of optimism is a little problematic. So far I have never slacked off in school and yet I have learned more from my private reading than I have in school. The learning I have achieved in school is solely the basis for the other learning I have done outside of school which has made my education more complete. After about sixth or seventh grade, I had achieved most of the skills necessary to continue solely on my own. i agree that school study does increase one's exposure to diverse groups beyond the normal exposure i would get educating myself with reading. DR> The pessimist in me says that you wouldn't be indocreinated into the DR> system correctly, and would grow to be a troublemaker. i really hope i've managed not to be indoctrinated into the system. but troublemaker? Define troublemaker. Specter -May benevolence and reason guide you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: 666 Date: Sat Dec 23 12:57:24 CST 1995 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: unavailable 666 is the number of the beast.... I have only read a few of the messages in here for I did not want to go through all 139 and read what you were saying. 666(the beast) is a she who wanders the abyyss in search of living... And/or dead who passes cerebus(the 9 headed dog of hell that prevents the dead from leaving and the living from entering in myth).... I use to read a lot of crap about hell... I use to be into satan but then I learned that if I don't have a belief in christ, how could I believe in satan.... Later DEViOUS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Academia Date: Wed Oct 16 13:38:16 CDT 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: unavailable Here's a puzzler: does academia (the mainline educational establishment) attract anal, cloistered, bookwormish types or does it simply steal the souls of otherwise normal people and make them that way? Maybe this one should be posted in "Clenched Fist" :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Academia Date: Thu Oct 17 03:45:32 CDT 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: 34 DR> Here's a puzzler: does academia (the mainline educational establishment) DR> attract anal, cloistered, bookwormish types or does it simply steal the sou DR> of otherwise normal people and make them that way? DR> Yes. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Academia Date: Fri Oct 18 10:37:31 CDT 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 34 DR> attract anal, cloistered, bookwormish types or does it simply steal the sou DR> of otherwise normal people and make them that way? The latter, they're storing the soals for the third world war to construct the Happy Cannon (bad pun) and bring laughter to everybody.. hahaha.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JER To: All Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Nov 18 21:10:55 CST 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 33 Does anyone really understand how we as a modern culture can expect to understand how 666 could be taken as a warning for a forthcoming apocolypse? Just as with any other number, (5,23,33,69) it can be manuipulated to refer to anything from Barney (the devil of the young) to Bill Gates (the devil of the middle aged) to Saddam (the devil of the old and easily confused). The idea of watching your surroundings and examining things as different then they appear is good, but to draw any real, life changing effects from it (like refusing to buy products with UPC symbols) also needs to be looked at. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Jer Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Nov 19 00:17:13 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 37 J> Does anyone really understand how we as a modern culture can expect to J> understand how 666 could be taken as a warning for a forthcoming apocolypse? J> Just as with any other number, (5,23,33,69) it can be manuipulated to refer I do not believe that the number is a predictor of apocalypse at all. It seems to me that there are a lot of people who are more interested in making life unnecessarily difficult. If you have read the *Book of Revelations,* you know that it is filled with imagery and symbology. Everything in it is subject to interpretation, and I believe that a lot of people simply have this wrong. To give an example how diverse these interpretations are, a monk named John Dee wrote a work in the 15th century that gave an Astrological and numerological interpretation that makes it quite different from the "mark of the beast" people talk about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIDNIGHT WRITER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Academia Date: Tue Nov 26 09:17:06 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: unavailable DR | Here's a puzzler: does academia (the mainline educational | establishment) attract anal, cloistered, bookwormish types or does | it simply steal the souls of otherwise normal people and make them | that way? | | Maybe this one should be posted in "Clenched Fist" :-) Both, but mostly the second. -==- --- ž JABBER v1.2 ž GODISNOWHERE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: edu-ads Date: Tue Dec 17 16:38:47 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: unavailable What would you say if you heard that your kids were going to schools that are now allowing paid advertisments within it's walls? My school is. Today I heard a plesantly shocking advertisment for the mall of america over our PA system. Hard to block that one out.. What do you all think of this? The school benefits, it get's paid. Where are the problems? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Tue Dec 17 17:40:29 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 BT> What would you say if you heard that your kids were going to schools that a BT> now allowing paid advertisments within it's walls? My school is. Today I BT> heard a plesantly shocking advertisment for the mall of america over our PA BT> system. Hard to block that one out.. What do you all think of this? The BT> school benefits, it get's paid. Where are the problems? BT> I have known about this for about 2 years, and it pisses me off. On the other hand, schools do not have enough funding and are desperate. Bond after bond is turned down, and expenses are constantly going up. What else should they do? Raise taxes? How? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Thu Dec 19 15:52:22 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 40 BT> What would you say if you heard that your kids were going to schools that a BT> now allowing paid advertisments within it's walls? My school is. Today I BT> heard a plesantly shocking advertisment for the mall of america over our PA BT> system. Hard to block that one out.. What do you all think of this? The BT> school benefits, it get's paid. Where are the problems? I'm disturbed that that level of advertising is reaching into schools. School should be a place for learning, not creating dutiful little consumers. On the other hand, the money can be very useful. Schools are so lacking in funds that there isn't always a way to buy needed equipment without finding some unusual form of funding. It's sort of a lose-lose situation in my opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Sat Dec 21 13:55:44 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Big Teebo <=- Fr> I have known about this for about 2 years, and it pisses me Fr> off. On the other hand, schools do not have enough funding and are Fr> desperate. Bond after bond is turned down, and expenses are Fr> constantly going up. What else should they do? Raise taxes? How? I have to say, in a few select places things are going OK (I suppose somewhere is better than nowhere, eh?). Eden Prairie schools, although by no means perfect have been able to stay away from a lot of commercial advertising as far as I've seen, and had 2 out of 3 planks of our referendum pass (the failed one was for a $6 million sports center). Hopefully more schools will take a step in the right direction. I wonder what students can do to promote this? Comments? ... invis: http://www.visi.com/~invis ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Sat Dec 21 16:08:57 CST 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: 42 S> I'm disturbed that that level of advertising is reaching into schools. Scho S> should be a place for learning, not creating dutiful little consumers. Exactly right. There's enough advertising targeted at kids and near-adults already. The way to beat it is to have the students organize against it; if the students don't want it, there's a huge reason for the administration to stop the practice. S> On the S> other hand, the money can be very useful. Schools are so lacking in funds S> that there isn't always a way to buy needed equipment without finding some S> unusual form of funding. It's sort of a lose-lose situation in my opinion. This, though, I don't buy. If advertisers are going to buy space in schools, which schools are they going to go to? Minneapolis South? Henry Sibley? Not likely. The advertisers are going to head due west and set up shop in Minnetonka and Wayzata High, perhaps branching south to Eden Prairie, east to Woodbury, and, just maybe, north into Anoka and Elk River. That's where the kids with money are, and that's where the advertisers will see the best "bang for their buck". All the talk about how badly public schools are doing has nothing to do with Wayzata or Eden Prairie. It's about the inner-city schools, where nobody wants to spend their money on (let's admit it) black kids. Don't even consider the "positive" side of advertising in schools, because those of you who do are missing the point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: .. Subject: ... Date: Sun Dec 22 21:16:08 CST 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: unavailable I find it rather disturbing, since students take a lot of what they're shown in school to be the _TRUTH_... i know i did. Having advertisements makes the kids believe that the product must be good, and should be bought, since the school is essentially endorsing said product.... Although I grew up with a little bit of advertising now and then within my school, and i don't think it affected me at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Mon Dec 23 06:05:28 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: 44 DT> Exactly right. There's enough advertising targeted at kids and near-adul DT> already. The way to beat it is to have the students organize against it; i DT> the students don't want it, there's a huge reason for the administration to DT> stop the practice. Definitely there needs to be organization of the students in opposition to the development of advertising in schools. DT> This, though, I don't buy. If advertisers are going to buy space in DT> schools, which schools are they going to go to? Minneapolis South? Henry DT> Sibley? Not likely. The advertisers are going to head due west and set up DT> shop in Minnetonka and Wayzata High, perhaps branching south to Eden Prairi DT> east to Woodbury, and, just maybe, north into Anoka and Elk River. That's DT> where the kids with money are, and that's where the advertisers will see th DT> best "bang for their buck". DT> All the talk about how badly public schools are doing has nothing to do w DT> Wayzata or Eden Prairie. It's about the inner-city schools, where nobody DT> wants to spend their money on (let's admit it) black kids. Don't even DT> consider the "positive" side of advertising in schools, because those of yo DT> who do are missing the point. Very true. But one has to consider that if the advertising was done in inner-city schools it would have a positive effect of adding money to the schools for needed classroom materials they couldn't afford before. In reality the advertisers aren't giving the money to where it is needed most so advertising has no real positives. In a slightly better world, the advertising would also be in schools that need that money the most so the advertising wwould have a positive side. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Mon Dec 23 17:25:11 CST 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 46 S> But one has to consider that if the advertising was done in S> inner-city schools it would have a positive effect of adding money to the S> schools for needed classroom materials they couldn't afford before. A very big if. Too big, in my opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Mon Dec 23 18:38:52 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Big Teebo : BT> What would you say if you heard that your kids were going to schools BT> that are now allowing paid advertisments within it's walls? I'd swear, pound the wall and head to the next school board meeting with a really, really big axe to grind. BT> Today I heard a plesantly shocking advertisment for the mall of BT> america over our PA system. Hard to block that one out.. What do you BT> all think of this? It's absolutely disgusting, I don't care how badly they need the money. KIds are an impressionable captive audience, and the last thing they need is a reinforcement on how much "fun" there is in their life at the Mall of America. Speaking of school board meetings, I went to one here in Inver Grove last week ... kind of disturbing. I'll post about it after the holidays. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Thu Dec 26 08:02:13 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 47 S> But one has to consider that if the advertising was done in S> inner-city schools it would have a positive effect of adding money to the S> schools for needed classroom materials they couldn't afford before. DT> DT> A very big if. Too big, in my opinion. I just want a distinction between what I believe in theory and what I believe to be reality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Thu Dec 26 14:54:21 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 49 S> I just want a distinction between what I believe in theory and what I believ S> to be reality. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions. And, if you are so inclined, you are perfectly entitled to believing your opinions to be reality. (Personally, I don't think you believe that your opinions are reality.) Everyone else is entitled to the same things. So, the big question is, where exactly does reality fit in to all this? (Perhaps we should switch this over to Philosophy...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: edu-ads Date: Fri Dec 27 10:43:43 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 50 DT> You are perfectly entitled to your opinions. And, if you are so inclined, DT> you are perfectly entitled to believing your opinions to be reality. DT> (Personally, I don't think you believe that your opinions are reality.) No, I'm quite sure what I believe would be a postitive of advertising in schools won't ever happen. I doubt the poor schools who need money will ever receive it through advertising. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Education--School Board Meeting Date: Wed Jan 22 09:36:10 CST 1997 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: unavailable I'm interested in the promised story from DR about the school board meeting in Inver Grove he attended. What was so disturbing. This sounds juicy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DARING DIANE J. Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 22 12:13:15 CST 1997 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daring Diane J. : DDJ> I'm interested in the promised story from DR about the school board DDJ> meeting in Inver Grove he attended. What was so disturbing. This DDJ> sounds juicy. I'd forgotten to type that up, thanks for the reminder. Basically, it was a room filled with people who all know each other - people who are all buddy-buddy, conducting their business in a veneer of casual friendliness. The meeting started with the pledge of allegiance, was interspersed with feel-good patriotically correct news and sentiments, and ended with more of the same. The sense I got was, if you're not into athletics or extracurricular activities like speech and debate then you're not interesting enough to bother with. I'm obviously biased by my stint in that school, but now I think I know where it all starts. There's no sense that the rest of the school is being given much weight there, or that they're really being paid attention to there ... Such is the state of the school district, I guess. ... Leonard Nimoy for President in 1996! The Only Logical Candidate! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Thu Jan 23 00:27:02 CST 1997 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: 53 DR> Basically, it was a room filled with people who all know each other - DR> people who are all buddy-buddy, conducting their business in a veneer DR> The sense I got was, if you're not into athletics or extracurricular DR> activities like speech and debate then you're not interesting enough to DR> bother with. I'm obviously biased by my stint in that school, but now I DR> think I know where it all starts. There's no sense that the rest of the It sure will be interesting when you have time to run, get elected, and go in there and shake things up. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Thu Jan 23 10:18:47 CST 1997 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : DR> The sense I got was, if you're not into athletics or extracurricular DR> activities like speech and debate then you're not interesting enough to DR> bother with. I'm obviously biased by my stint in that school, but now I DR> think I know where it all starts. There's no sense that the rest of the Fr> Fr> It sure will be interesting when you have time to run, get Fr> elected, and go in there and shake things up. :) I was actually thinking of that, but I don't know if I have a strong enough stomach for a weekly barrage of that crap ... ... Be suspicious of all native-born Esperanto speakers. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Fri Jan 24 01:30:48 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: 55 DR> Fr> It sure will be interesting when you have time to run, get DR> Fr> elected, and go in there and shake things up. :) DR> DR> I was actually thinking of that, but I don't know if I have a strong DR> enough stomach for a weekly barrage of that crap ... DR> Er . . . That is why beginning politicians often start with school boards. Helps strengthen your stomach. You become hardened and learn what brands of antiacids work best. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Sat Jan 25 06:46:58 CST 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : DR> I was actually thinking of that, but I don't know if I have a strong DR> enough stomach for a weekly barrage of that crap ... DR> Fr> Er . . . That is why beginning politicians often start with Fr> school boards. Helps strengthen your stomach. You become hardened Fr> and learn what brands of antiacids work best. But I want to be president of the world *right now*. Waiting sucks. ... Clinton supporters know how the American Indians felt. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Sun Jan 26 12:27:40 CST 1997 Message number: 58 Reply to message number: 56 Yes, DR, I second Froggy's recommendation about school boards. I was told by Senator Janet Johnson, a leader in the Minnesota Legislature on environmental issues, that she got started in politics because someone asked her to run in a school board election. She won. She said the school board experience was good for her. She's now doing what I think are good things for Minnesota down at the Capitol. Since Johnson is Froggy's Senator, maybe Froggy has a better perspective on her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Sun Jan 26 17:30:23 CST 1997 Message number: 59 Reply to message number: 53 DR> Basically, it was a room filled with people who all know each other - DR> people who are all buddy-buddy, conducting their business in a veneer DR> of casual friendliness. The meeting started with the pledge of allegiance, DR> was interspersed with feel-good patriotically correct news and sentiments, DR> and ended with more of the same. I often feel that's the primary problem with politics and government; the fact that so many of the people involved know and are chummy with each other. Although it would never happen, I think having legislators chosen by lottery would be better in the long run--everyone would have a reason to be interested in the system, and "shady deals" would be unlikely, since nobody feels beholden to anyone else for their position. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 00:15:34 CST 1997 Message number: 60 Reply to message number: 58 DD> was good for her. She's now doing what I think are good things for Minneso DD> down at the Capitol. Since Johnson is Froggy's Senator, maybe Froggy has a DD> better perspective on her. Like all officials, Janet has some good points & bad points. In the balance, however, I think she does excellent legislative work. She sure is a talented politician. She can work a room full of people and have them following her without them ever realizing what she did. There is a rumor going around that she is not going to run in the next election, and if so, it will be a terrible loss to environmentalists. There are a couple of people in line to follow her who are very competent in other areas, but none of them are particularly environmentalists. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 00:22:34 CST 1997 Message number: 61 Reply to message number: 59 DR> Basically, it was a room filled with people who all know each other - DR> people who are all buddy-buddy, conducting their business in a veneer DT> I often feel that's the primary problem with politics and government; the f DT> that so many of the people involved know and are chummy with each other. Yes, but they are usually not too chummy until after they become involved in politics. For example, there are often only 2 of us who come to my precinct caucus. When newcomers come, of course it will appear that the 2 of us know each other, know how to conduct the caucus, and we may even look lie a clique. This is not the faults of the few who participate. It is the fault of the many who do not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 03:33:30 CST 1997 Message number: 62 Reply to message number: 57 DR> But I want to be president of the world *right now*. DR> DR> Waiting sucks. * heheh but you're not a sysop any more...that's as close to being god as you're gonna get... ;) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DARING DIANE J. Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 18:22:27 CST 1997 Message number: 63 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daring Diane J. : DDJ> Yes, DR, I second Froggy's recommendation about school boards. You're all just conspiring together to get me elected to something, aren't you? :-) ... Fuck! ... damn, there goes another $250,000. Thanks, Senator Exon! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: COSIMA Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 18:22:28 CST 1997 Message number: 64 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Cosima : DR> But I want to be president of the world *right now*. DR> DR> Waiting sucks. Co> * Co> heheh but you're not a sysop any more...that's as close to being god Co> as you're gonna get... I'm lord, god and master to my cat. That's closer to omnipotence than anything I'd ever have over humans, since they outlawed actual ownership of other people over a century ago ... ... Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 21:03:00 CST 1997 Message number: 65 Reply to message number: 63 DR> DDJ> Yes, DR, I second Froggy's recommendation about school boards. DR> DR> You're all just conspiring together to get me elected to something, DR> aren't you? :-) DR> Hell, yes! We can use all the personal patsies in office we can get. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Mon Jan 27 21:05:00 CST 1997 Message number: 66 Reply to message number: 64 DR> Co> heheh but you're not a sysop any more...that's as close to being god DR> Co> as you're gonna get... DR> DR> I'm lord, god and master to my cat. That's closer to omnipotence than DR> anything I'd ever have over humans, since they outlawed actual ownership DR> of other people over a century ago ... DR> Considering that cats are usually lord, god, and masters in their homes, that is significant. A sure sign that you were born to lead. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Tue Jan 28 14:02:23 CST 1997 Message number: 67 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> The sense I got was, if you're not into athletics or extracurricular >activities like speech and debate then you're not interesting enough to >bother with. I'm obviously biased by my stint in that school, but now I Hey, they're making progress. They are considering something besides athletics. --- ž OLX 1.53 ž One word for all you aethiests out there; wrong ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 03:54:51 CST 1997 Message number: 68 Reply to message number: 64 DR> I'm lord, god and master to my cat. That's closer to omnipotence than DR> anything I'd ever have over humans, since they outlawed actual ownership DR> of other people over a century ago ... * hate to be the one to break it to you, m'lord.... but you ain't NO way a master to that feline. he/she just allows you to THINK you are so you'll be more efficiently trained to serve her every want and need. ain't no person ever superior to no cat. heheh -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 07:14:56 CST 1997 Message number: 69 Reply to message number: 65 Please, please, won't you become our favorite politician so we can get you to give us special favors? I'd like a big government subsidy for my alternative energy friends so they can get their business off the ground. If you start off in the Inver School Board, be sure you pass a mandate to hire only teachers who are opposed to nuclear power and big business. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:10 CST 1997 Message number: 70 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : DR> You're all just conspiring together to get me elected to something, DR> aren't you? :-) DR> Fr> Hell, yes! We can use all the personal patsies in office we Fr> can get. :) You don't have enough cash for that, I'm afriad. The bidding starts at $15,000. ... Texas is the Reason ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: THROCKMORTON Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:13 CST 1997 Message number: 71 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Throckmorton : DR> The sense I got was, if you're not into athletics or extracurricular >activities like speech and debate then you're not interesting enough to >bother with. I'm obviously biased by my stint in that school, but now I Th> Hey, they're making progress. They are considering something besides Th> athletics. True, but that still leaves over half the students in the lurch. The kids who just go through school, spend their time there and leave, and don't make much noise, get ignored. Beter than slow painful torture I guess, but maybe for $8000 a year they deserve something more. ... Yield to temptation; It may not pass your way again. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: COSIMA Subject: Re: Cats Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:14 CST 1997 Message number: 72 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Cosima : DR> I'm lord, god and master to my cat. That's closer to omnipotence than DR> anything I'd ever have over humans, since they outlawed actual ownership DR> of other people over a century ago ... Co> * Co> hate to be the one to break it to you, m'lord.... Good, about time you decided to show me the proper respect. When I'm president of the world, I'll remember this ... Co> but you ain't NO way a master to that feline. he/she just allows you Co> to THINK you are so you'll be more efficiently trained to serve her Co> every want and need. ain't no person ever superior to no cat. Ah, but this one follows me around everywhere and walks around the house whining when I'm not here. Trust me, I'm his lord and god. ... Jesus saves, Allah protects, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DARING DIANE J. Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:15 CST 1997 Message number: 73 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daring Diane J. : DDJ> Please, please, won't you become our favorite politician so we can DDJ> get you to give us special favors? I'd like a big government subsidy DDJ> for my alternative energy friends so they can get their business off Sorry, I don't play well with others. If you want special favors, I suggest you slip Kevin Knight a $50 ... I hear he needs the money. DDJ> the ground. If you start off in the Inver School Board, be sure you DDJ> pass a mandate to hire only teachers who are opposed to nuclear power DDJ> and big business. No, I'd rather hire only secular humanist, Satan-worshiping, bat-eating, died-in-the-wool 60s hippy drug-using radical liberal communist pinkos. Know if there are many around? ... It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 15:17:36 CST 1997 Message number: 74 Reply to message number: 61 F> Yes, but they are usually not too chummy until after they become F> involved in politics. For example, there are often only 2 of us who come to F> my precinct caucus. When newcomers come, of course it will appear that the F> of us know each other, know how to conduct the caucus, and we may even look F> lie a clique. This is not the faults of the few who participate. It is the F> fault of the many who do not. Touche. But couldn't you run things so the newcomers would at least feel more involved? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Wed Jan 29 15:20:32 CST 1997 Message number: 75 Reply to message number: 68 C> hate to be the one to break it to you, m'lord.... C> but you ain't NO way a master to that feline. he/she just allows you to THIN C> you are so you'll be more efficiently trained to serve her every want and C> need. ain't no person ever superior to no cat. I'd agree with you, Cosima, except that a friend of mine's girlfriend has the _dumbest_ cats in creation. Every time I come over, I bring a bag of snacks. Once the bag is empty, I lay it on the floor, the cats climb in, I roll up the top, and I play "kitty football" for about 10 minutes. Every time! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Cats Date: Wed Jan 29 17:18:21 CST 1997 Message number: 76 Reply to message number: 72 DR> Co> but you ain't NO way a master to that feline. he/she just allows you DR> Co> to THINK you are so you'll be more efficiently trained to serve her DR> Co> every want and need. ain't no person ever superior to no cat. DR> DR> Ah, but this one follows me around everywhere and walks around the house DR> whining when I'm not here. Trust me, I'm his lord and god. * heheh. so YOU think. actually, he's just taking notes...and later getting on the cats-only BBS and telling everyone what a loser you are. nyaaaah! (meow) -=c=- (the above was written by cosima's cat without her knowledge or consent) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Thu Jan 30 02:39:04 CST 1997 Message number: 77 Reply to message number: 70 DR> DR> You're all just conspiring together to get me elected to something, DR> DR> aren't you? :-) DR> DR> DR> Fr> Hell, yes! We can use all the personal patsies in office we DR> Fr> can get. :) DR> DR> You don't have enough cash for that, I'm afriad. DR> DR> The bidding starts at $15,000. DR> You haven't been elected yet, either, have you? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Thu Jan 30 02:50:50 CST 1997 Message number: 78 Reply to message number: 74 F> Yes, but they are usually not too chummy until after they become F> involved in politics. For example, there are often only 2 of us who come to F> my precinct caucus. When newcomers come, of course it will appear that the F> of us know each other, know how to conduct the caucus, and we may even look F> lie a clique. This is not the faults of the few who participate. It is the F> fault of the many who do not. DT> DT> Touche. But couldn't you run things so the newcomers would at least feel m DT> involved? How? When newcomers come, *we* are the ones who have arranged the precinct location. *We* are the ones who have the precinct chair's packet mailed to us. *We* are the ones who know all the details the newcomers need to ask -- When and where is the County Unit Convention? The Senate District Convention? How many delegates are we allowed? Why? How does gender balance election work? etc., etc. We would be very grateful if more people would step up to help us, but a significant part of the work must be done BEFORE the meeting, and not by just bitching about being left out afterward. For example, see the piece that DR downloaded about the 1998 election. The State Central Committee Meeting was last Saturday and work has been under way for the 1998 election for at least 2 months now. It is asking to much to not participate in any of this and then complain that you haven't been "involved" by the others who did all the rest of the work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Thu Jan 30 13:30:38 CST 1997 Message number: 79 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : Fr> and not by just bitching about being left out afterward. For example, Fr> see the piece that DR downloaded about the 1998 election. I didn't post it publicly, so very few people actually saw it. Fr> The State Fr> Central Committee Meeting was last Saturday and work has been under Fr> way for the 1998 election for at least 2 months now. It is asking to Fr> much to not participate in any of this and then complain that you Fr> haven't been "involved" by the others who did all the rest of the work. Still, it's difficult to walk the line ... trying to welcome the newcomers, keeping order, giving all the information out, all the while trying not to appear autocratic or bossy. In short, though, you can never please everyone. Some poeple are just born assholes. ... Let no good deed go unpunished. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Fri Jan 31 00:45:39 CST 1997 Message number: 80 Reply to message number: 79 DR> Fr> way for the 1998 election for at least 2 months now. It is asking to DR> Fr> much to not participate in any of this and then complain that you DR> Fr> haven't been "involved" by the others who did all the rest of the wor DR> DR> Still, it's difficult to walk the line ... trying to welcome the DR> newcomers, keeping order, giving all the information out, all the while DR> trying not to appear autocratic or bossy. DR> Exactly. That is my point. If a newcomer resents others knowing more than he does, the only choice he has is to get over it. DR> In short, though, you can never please everyone. Some poeple are just born DR> assholes. Yea, Howdy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Cats Date: Fri Jan 31 11:00:58 CST 1997 Message number: 81 Reply to message number: 76 C> heheh. so YOU think. actually, he's just taking notes...and later getting on C> the cats-only BBS and telling everyone what a loser you are. nyaaaah! (meow) Hmmm...I have considered that cats are actually an alien observer species reporting on our behavior to secret, otherworldly masters; now I have confirmation. Thanks, Cosima, this'll make an excellent X-Files script! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Fri Jan 31 11:06:12 CST 1997 Message number: 82 Reply to message number: 78 F> election work? etc., etc. We would be very grateful if more people would F> step up to help us, but a significant part of the work must be done BEFORE t F> meeting, and not by just bitching about being left out afterward. For F> example, see the piece that DR downloaded about the 1998 election. The Stat F> Central Committee Meeting was last Saturday and work has been under way for F> the 1998 election for at least 2 months now. It is asking to much to not F> participate in any of this and then complain that you haven't been "involved As someone who isn't involved in the system but might be interested in it, how would I know when these things happen? If I knew anything about elections, I'd understand that planning for the next one starts right after the last one is over, for organizers as well as candidates, but what would I do about it? People can't act on information they don't have, and stuff like this never seems to get general dissemination. When was the last time you saw a reminder of the upcoming State Central Committee meeting on the 10-o'clock news? Or somewhere prominent in the newspaper instead of getting buried amongst the want-ads? If the only information I have is what just happened without my knowledge, I don't see that there's anything I can do but bitch. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Education--School Boa Date: Fri Jan 31 12:29:26 CST 1997 Message number: 83 Reply to message number: 82 DT> People can't act on information they don't have, and stuff like this never DT> seems to get general dissemination. When was the last time you saw a remin DT> of the upcoming State Central Committee meeting on the 10-o'clock news? Or DT> somewhere prominent in the newspaper instead of getting buried amongst the DT> want-ads? DT> Actually, both parties' State Central Committee meetings are closed. But you would be welcome to come with a delegate or an alternate and sit in the visitors' gallery. As far as I know, the Indepence Party has not yet organized a Central Committee. It takes time to become involved with politics and know what is going on. And what is going on changes from one moment to the next. I have been involved for more than 35 years, and still struggle to keep up. There are some important things that you can do: first, don't believe much you see in the media. The media is running with this fantasy of the "3 sons," of 3 DFL politicians who are running for governor. In fact, one has announced,one is uncertain, and one is not running. There are several other gubernatorial candidates among DFLers, of whom the strongest at this point seems to be Mark Dayton. Second, do what you are doing. Find other people who are involved in the system and ask them questions. Third, go to caucuses, potlucks, and any get-togethers you can find out about. If you take your checkbook and make a donation, you will receive more printed material than you would believe. Fourth, find a candidate, get behind him or her, and support him or her to the hilt. Then, not only will you know about dates, etc., but you will help set them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: DARE Date: Sun Feb 02 10:18:13 CST 1997 Message number: 84 Reply to message number: unavailable DARE FAQ Drug Abuse Resistance Education (DARE) Fact Sheet DARE is a school-based anti-drug curriculum from the Los Angeles Police Department and Unified School District. DARE was originated by ex-Chief Daryl Gates in order to place police officers in our schools. With the support of local law enforcement, DARE has grown into an expensive program that consumes upwards of $700 million federal, state, and local tax dollars each year. Does DARE keep children off of drugs? What trends are shown by nationwide surveys of adolescent drug use? Researcher Lloyd Johnston of the University of Michigan conducts the nationwide "Monitoring the Ruture" Survey each year for drug use trends. A third of eight-graders, mostly 13-year olds, report using illegal drugs. Marijuana use more than doubled amon g eight-graders between 1991 and 1994. Two-thirds of eight-graders have tried alcohol. A quarter say they still drink. Twenty-eight percent say they have been drunk at least once. Smoking among eight-graders rose 30% between 1991 and 1994. If DARE is effective on a national basis, should not these trends be in the opposite direction? Lloyd Johnston said, "I have to conclude that DARE has had little or no effect except to give police officers something to do." [Las Vegas Sun, 5/1-2/94] An editorial in the Worcester, Mass. Telegram lamented: "One disturbing fact: While DARE has expanded, drug abuse and cigarette smoking among young people have increased nationwide." [Sunday Telegram, 1/28/96]. What do scientific evaluations of the DARE program indicate? Is the research valid? Although DARE supporters are quick to claim "popularity ... saving only one child ... positive relations with the police ..." valid evaluations of DARE consistently show no program effectiveness in the primary objective of "keeping kids off drugs.’ Numer ous studies show that some DARE students [males and suburban children] are more likely to use drugs as compared to non-DARE students. These disturbing findings document the dreaded "boomerang effect", or an outcome exactly opposite that desired. The Res earch Triangle Institute [RTI - Durham, NC 919-541-6000] was commissioned by the Department of Justice to evaluate DARE. Although passing extensive peer review for validity, the RTI study was rejected by both Justice and DARE [USA Today, 10/4/94, p2A]. T he RTI findings were published in the American Journal of Public Health [9/94 p 1399], and showed that DARE students used more marijuana. "DARE’s effects were limited to essentially non-existent." - RTI researcher Dr. Susan Ennett. "An important implica tion is that DARE could be taking the place of other, more beneficial drug use curricula that adolescents could be receiving." Are police officers suited to lead a program of behavioral psychology to adolescents? Should all students receive DARE? How does the image of the officer fare if the central message of DARE is rejected? The following excerpts are from "Truth and DARE: Tracking Drug Education to Graduation and as Symbolic Politics" E. Wysong and R. Aniskiewicz [Indiana University], D. Wright [Wichita State University] Social Problems, Vol.41 No. 3, August, 1994. Pp 448-472. (with extensive references): "As a result of attempting to prevent all drug experimentation and/or use, Dare’s objectives are not only unrealistic but also possibly counter-productive because they are obviously unattainable ... The finding of significantly higher hallucinogen us e among the DARE group raises the possibility that drug education programs may increase student curiosity about drugs and lead to earlier and greater drug experimentation ... [On comparison of DARE vs. Non-DARE students]: there was a sharp declin e in positive attitudes toward police, and a growing unwillingness to condemn peer’s consumption of alcohol ... Imposing DARE upon divided studies confirm this prospect and demonstrate that when ‘socially-deviant youths are required to participate in the school setting in peer-led denunciation of activities they value, they are more likely to become alienated than converted.’" Is DARE harmful to children? Are indications of trouble that a parent should be looking out for? The slightly revised 1994 DARE curriculum has been implemented as an untested experimental program, lead by police officers who have insufficient qualifications to teach behavioral psychology. The core of the DARE curriculum are "refusal skills" or eight ways to "Say No." These include techniques such as "Repeated refusal, walking away, or giving the ’cold shoulder’." Role playing with the ultimate authority figure [a police officer in uniform] instills these responses which will be used against other legitimate authority figures. DARE’s instructions to "Just ignore the person." May inadvertently be re-directed toward parents and teachers. Worse, empowering children to decide for themselves on whether or not to use drugs can boomerang" A DARE studen t may "Just say OK" when they themselves decide it is time to experiment with drugs. Parents should e aware of these trends among fight through eight-graders. Please copy and share this sheet with parents, teachers, the media, school, government and pol ice officials. Written by Steve Wallace ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: DARE Date: Sun Feb 02 11:08:58 CST 1997 Message number: 85 Reply to message number: 84 BT> Department and Unified School District. DARE was originated by ex-Chief BT> Daryl BT> Gates in order to place police officers in our schools. With the support Lessee. Is this the same Darryl Gates who was the Chief of Police in Los Angeles when the Rodney King verdict came in, the city blew up, and he pulled all of the cops out of the rioting areas? I don't see him as the pinnacle of law enforcement wisdom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: DARE Date: Wed Feb 05 11:28:09 CST 1997 Message number: 86 Reply to message number: 85 F> Lessee. Is this the same Darryl Gates who was the Chief of Police F> Los Angeles when the Rodney King verdict came in, the city blew up, and he F> pulled all of the cops out of the rioting areas? I don't see him as the F> pinnacle of law enforcement wisdom. It's pretty bad, isn't it? As a DARE child knowing kids that are in high school now, I can pretty safely say that it doesn't work. For me, the reason I see it as complete crap (however, the fact that I disagree with it doesn't mean I'm going to snort coke anytime soon), is that they shoved the phrases "No", "don't do this", and "It's illegal" down your throat. As a matter of fact, the 'it's illegal' part was what they said was worst about these drugs. They never truly described what one would feel like (ie the benefits), and the after affects of the drug usage (sensations, monetary costs, etc). It was just a bunch of people saying "Don't do this because it's not cool and it's illegal. We are the cool cops telling --->You what to do". Maybe it would be better as phrasing it as a "decision" the person makes, and having the positive and negative effects mapped out, just so they could see. Also, you do have to factor in that kids are simply curious and don't always learn the first time around, and I wonder how much you can do about that past a certain age. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: DARE Date: Wed Feb 05 13:21:27 CST 1997 Message number: 87 Reply to message number: 86 TI> Maybe it would be better as phrasing it as a "decision" the person make TI> and having the positive and negative effects mapped out, just so they could TI> see. Also, you do have to factor in that kids are simply curious and don't TI> always learn the first time around, and I wonder how much you can do about TI> that past a certain age. This is one of the things that amazes me about some adults. They know that children are capable of learning. If a child touches a hot stove once, he probably won't touch it again. Yet the approach that many adults take is to prevent children from reaching out and exploring at all costs. Too many of them just assume tha kids will automatically obey whatever they are told, regardless of their relationship with the adult, or their previous experience. It is a fine line to draw. As I see it, our job as parents (and drug counsellors) is to tell the TRUTH at all times. I handled this when my children were young by allowing them to experiment with things that are unpleasant and using the result to teach other things. For example, when my son accidentally drank some spoiled milk and spit it up all over the kitchen, I used it to let him help me mark all the cleaning agents with "Mr. Yukk" stickers. I said, "Remember that itching you got from that poison ivy? Remember that rotten milk? That is why we mark these things with Mr. Yukk. So you will know they are not nice." I never lied to them or underestimated their role, which is what I think the cops are doing in DARE. I saw this training come into effect twice yesterday. The same son is now 25. I was out driving in his car with him, and we were driving on some icy rural roads that he was not familiar with. On one road, I warned him to slow down because there were a lot of deer in that area, and if one jumps in front of you on ice, you are toast. He asked, "At 2:00 in the afternoon? I thought you saw them at dusk." I said, "In this area, you see them at all times, and they are especially likely to be about today because the weather is nice and the winter has been rough and they are hungry. They will be moving, looking for food." He immediately said, "Oh, standing fields of corn. I see," and slowed down. Later, we were going down another road and I was leading in my car. I told him, "This may look absurd to you, but the road is deceptive. It slants downward into a steep curve and your car gains speed even if you aren't accelerating. I have run off of it twice, and today it is glare ice. He follwed carefully, several car lengths behind me, and was really rattled when I *DID* spin out, but because he had listened to my warning, he was prepared, and didn't slide into me. I think that adults miss the boat when they let their children know that they may lie to them. The kids who know that adults do not lie are more likely to listen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: DARE Date: Wed Feb 05 17:12:22 CST 1997 Message number: 88 Reply to message number: 86 TI> Maybe it would be better as phrasing it as a "decision" the person make TI> and having the positive and negative effects mapped out, just so they could TI> see. Also, you do have to factor in that kids are simply curious and don't What, you want kids to make actual *decisions*? Anarchist! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: DARE Date: Sat Feb 08 04:09:24 CST 1997 Message number: 89 Reply to message number: 87 F> experience. It is a fine line to draw. As I see it, our job as parents (an F> drug counsellors) is to tell the TRUTH at all times. I handled this when my I agree. As a matter of fact, I could go so far as to say, as far as my friends go roughly 70% of all altercations they get in between their parents wouldn't have occurred in the first place if one of the two (either parent or the kid) told the truth (especially when a lie is unnecessary). Humans are strange I guess.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: DARE Date: Sat Feb 15 11:03:02 CST 1997 Message number: 90 Reply to message number: 86 TI> It's pretty bad, isn't it? As a DARE child knowing kids that are in hig TI> school now, I can pretty safely say that it doesn't work. For me, the reaso TI> see it as complete crap (however, the fact that I disagree with it doesn't TI> mean I'm going to snort coke anytime soon), is that they shoved the phrases TI> "No", "don't do this", and "It's illegal" down your throat. As a matter of TI> fact, the 'it's illegal' part was what they said was worst about these drug I've never been in DARE; too old, y'know, but I'm pretty convinced it doesn't work, at least not the way it's supporters claim it does. I pulled a news article off one of the electronic newspaper archives about a year ago which contrasted the DARE supporters' position with the results of studies done to try and validate DARE's effectiveness. I think I still have the printout; if I find it, I'll post as much of it as I can type in one hour. TI> They never truly described what one would feel like (ie the benefits), and TI> after affects of the drug usage (sensations, monetary costs, etc). It was j TI> a bunch of people saying "Don't do this because it's not cool and it's TI> illegal. We are the cool cops telling --->You what to do". My own elementary school drug education was much more effective, I think. When I was in sixth grade (for the second year; long story, but if you really want to hear it, e-mail me), my teacher asked me to do a report on drugs. So I sent off a letter to the state government, asking where I might get some info. They sent me back a whole bunch of info, much of it in booklets and pamphlets seemingly designed with sixth graders in mind, which explained the medical names for various drug categories (narcotics, hallucinogens, amphetamines, etc.), what they did, and what their long-term effects were. The straight clincal information, written so a bright sixth-grader could understand it, was enough to guarantee that I wouldn't casually experiment with anything on the level of heroin, LSD, or methamphetamine. For the record (and to date myself), this was in 1978. How little we've learned since then... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Kooky Kooky Date: Thu Mar 06 19:21:47 CST 1997 Message number: 91 Reply to message number: unavailable From: Sumner@rochgte.fidonet.or Read: Yes Replied: No Subj: [chstate] Religious Right ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Perhaps you or others are unaware of the statements of the religious right which have a bearing on your freedom and mine. This series of quotations is meant to illustrate their attitude, their distortions, and the threat they pose. A survey by People for the American Way in 1994 showed that 60% of the American public was unaware of the Christian Coalition. It is time for the public to wake up. Join us in preserving a principle which has helped make the United States one of the freest but most religious nations. Read the series of postings debunking myths about church-state separation. It is available also in pamphlet form. ON SCHOOLS "This country was founded on the flag and belief in God. I'd want creationism to go hand in hand with evolution. I don't think studying creation as the Christians believe it hurts anybody." --Esther Davis, member of the Lodi, Calif. school board, The Stockton R ecord, November 1990 ***** "[The United States is] a once-Christian country that has been force-fed the poisons of paganism." --Pat Buchanan, Right from the Beginning, 1988 ***** "Satan uses the evil in the new age witchcraft lessons in our classrooms to divert our children's faith away from the true and loving God toward the new age god of `Mother Earth' while our school teachers and administrators are saying, `Well, it's good environmental ecology.'" --Robert Simonds, Citizens for Excellence in Education, Earth Day message, 1992 ***** "Modern public education is the most dangerous single force in a child's life: religiously, sexually, economically, patriotically and physically." --Rev. Tim LaHaye, (Dave Marsh, 50 Ways to Fight Censorship) ***** "Every one of us is called to be one of God's priests. When you walk into your [school] building, you can claim it for Christ." --Forrest Turpen, Christian Educators Association International, Hartford Current, 1988 ***** "When you read articles by Janet Jones, Robert Marzano, Skipp Porteous, Theodore Sizer, and John Goodlad, remember that their agenda is atheism, socialism and anti-democratic world globalism. To them, "critical thinking" means teaching children to empty themselves of their own values (transmitted from parents, church and culture) and accept a set of suggested values (atheist/socialist)." --Robert Simonds, CEE, "A Plea for the Children," Educational Leadership, Dec/Jan, 1994 ***** "We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality... Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political, and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." --Gary North, Institute for Christian Economics, quoted in Bill Moyers' "God and Politics," PBS, 1987 ***** "We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about simply spreading the Gospel in a political context." --Paul Weyrich, August 1980 "In our public schools students are being taught how to write suicide notes. They are being shown a variety of methods of creating suicide and given recommendations about which are preferable. They are told about and taught to do, indeed, build models of their coffins. The Bible says that those that hate God love death, and that is what all of this is: just death, death and more death." --Rev. D. James Kennedy, "A Noble Origin and Destiny" ***** "When they teach children in public schools about history, they knowingly omit all references to God and Christ, including those that are foundational to our country's beginning. Then they tell us uneducated masses that the founding fathers struggled to keep church and biblical influences out of politics. These are bold-faced lies. (Violates Ninth Commandment).... `They' are (in random order): The National Organization of Women (NOW); the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU); the National Education Association (NEA); pagan judges of federal state and local benches; the Hollywood elite; Act-Up; Queer Nation; North American Man-Boy Love Association; the majority of newspaper editors and journalists; the majority of television's elite; the American Medical Association (AMA); an army of university deans and professors (educated way beyond their intelligence); the major networks; the Ted Kennedy crowd; the friends of Hillary crowd; the faceless crowd of bureaucrats that have infested our nation; the messianic social-engineers that skulk around in small communities across the nation promoting `tolerance'; Planned Parenthood (curriculum and condoms); the Madonna crowd, the Green Peace crowd; the Al Gore eco-freak crowd; Earth First; People [sic] United for the Separation of Church and State; various social service agencies; the Children's Defense League; the child-killers and spineless career politicians who allow these lunatics to terrorize them into promoting iniquity; and the innumerable cadres of bureaucratic, statist thugs who are on a mission to rid the earth of Christian influence and biblical morality. That's who `they' are, just to name a few. --Randall Terry, Why Does a Nice Guy Like Me Keep Getting Thrown In Jail?, pp. 138-139, (Huntington House Publishers/Resistance Press, 1993) ***** "I am fully in support of Christian teachers being missionaries in public schools, living and testifying Christ. However, we should keep our children out and ultimately seek to sink the current public education fiasco and replace it with voucher, parent choice education." --Randall Terry, Why Does a Nice Guy Like Me Keep Getting Thrown In Jail?, p. 169, (Huntington House Publishers/Resistance Press, 1993) ***** "The next step, if at all humanly possible (and in 90 percent of the cases it is), it is to get our children out of the humanistic, brainwashing institution called `public education'. Frankly, it is a mixture of insanity and irresponsibility to turn our children over to our adversaries and their curriculum in a God-less education system (i.e., a system that teaches history and science without God." --Randall Terry, Why Does a Nice Guy Like Me Keep Getting Thrown In Jail?, p. 168, (Huntington House Publishers/Resistance Press, 1993) ***** "School Prayer is a sort of a code word. It doesn't mean anything really. I think it would be a step in the right direction possibly. What matters is a return to basic discipline or morality." --Pat Robertson, Baptist Press, 6/7/86 ***** Join us! Membership of $25 includes a subscription to the award-winning journal Church & State. ... A library is an arsenal of liberty. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: SANDMAN Subject: Quotes Date: Tue Mar 11 12:14:47 CST 1997 Message number: 92 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Sandman to All <=- Sa> ***** Sa> "I imagine every Christian would agree that we need to remove the Sa> humanism from the public schools. There is only one way to accomplish Sa> this: to abolish the public schools." Sa> --the Rev. Robert L. Thoburn, The Children Trap, 1986 Sa> ***** Sa> "One day, I hope in the next ten years, I trust that we will have more Sa> Christian day schools than there are public schools. I hope I will Sa> live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't Sa> have any public schools. The churches will have taken over them over Sa> again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will Sa> be! Sa> --Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 Sa> ***** Sa> The penultimate Sa> goal of these Christians should be the privatization of these larcenous Sa> institutions, and the ultimate aim the bringing of them under the Sa> authority of Christ and His word." Sa> "We are a great threat to public schools. We may have to get rid of Sa> them." Sa> --Robert Simonds, CEE, speech, 3/6/93, Glen Mills, PA Sa> ***** What do all of these quotes have in common? They all call for the destruction of public education if they (Christians) cannot have complete control over it. This seems to be a trait found in all conservatives. If policy, a system, organization, tradition , or law doesn't advance the idealogy of conservatism they oppose it and even sometimes will work to destroy it. The fad among the conservatives today is vouchers. They want vouchers for private schools, for charity, drug treatment, and whatever else they can find. What's the scam? These conservatives have used poor inner city blacks as their primary tool to convince the public to support vouchers. They have even narrowed the voucher scheme to areas where public schools are under funded and unsupported in the community. This is their vehicle to establish their eventually control over all Education. What will vouchers do? 1. Establishing that public funds can go to organizations that discriminate against the very public that is taxed to support them will open the door to lawsuits charging discrimination against government (the public) towards private organizations. These organizations could sue the government for "equal funding" for schools, hospitals, parks, roads, police, or anything else. With enough "wins" the public could be bankrupted leaving only conservative organizations to perform important tasks. Equal public funding would have to be given to both schools that would not discriminate (like public schools) and to schools that would discriminate (like private schools). Bad idea. 2. The Undercutting of public education, with money that could/would have gone to improve underfunded public schools, is the equivalent to being forced to run a marathon after having your belly slit open. You can't run and try to keep your guts from spilling out at the same time all that you can do is crawl very slowly on the ground until death. If funds are taken from the monies spent on teachers, buildings, utilities, and other resources are bundled into vouchers and sent to parents are public schools cannot hope to compete. Teachers would be fired, buildings closed, and costs would be cut every where in the system. The schools would crumble further. 3. The public would lose almost all "say" in education. With vouchers the "say" in education goes to the parents. Yippy! Yippy! They know what's best for their children! But do they no what's best for society? This money is public money taxed for blacks, whites, Christians, muslims, gays, straights, conservtives, liberals, married, unmarried, with child, and childless. Unless you have children you have no "say". This is wrong. You take my money I want "say" in how it is spent. 4. Political Favoritism. Political money whores will divert public funds to politically correct private schools that will benefit their political idealogy. Schools that don't promote politically correct ideas could find voucher monies drying up. Farfetched? Yeah, but not impossible. 5. Fraud. Imagine millions of public funds going out in cashable vouchers. Scammers are drooling. When too much money is lost to fraud we could be forced to go to direct funding of those private schools. Many of the above mentioned would go into effect. Political favoritism, equal funding BS, and loss of influence. Vouchers can lead to a slippery slope of unintended and intended consequences. There is a better way. Read tagline. ... PUBLIC SCHOOLS - PUBLIC FUNDS; PRIVATE SCHOOLS - PRIVATE FUNDS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Tue Mar 11 16:07:46 CST 1997 Message number: 93 Reply to message number: 92 S> Sa> have any public schools. The churches will have taken over them over S> Sa> again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will S> Sa> be! S> Sa> --Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 S> Again?????? Whose history has ole' Jerry been reading? When it was left up to the churches, only a favored few, usually Jewish or Catholic, were educated at all. S> They all call for the destruction of public education if they S> (Christians) cannot have complete control over it. S> ... PUBLIC SCHOOLS - PUBLIC FUNDS; PRIVATE SCHOOLS - PRIVATE FUNDS. Errrrr . . . Your NEA is showing. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: SANDMAN Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Wed Mar 12 16:09:25 CST 1997 Message number: 94 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Sandman : Sa> This seems to be a trait found in all conservatives. If policy, a Sa> system, organization, tradition , or law doesn't advance the Sa> idealogy of conservatism they oppose it and even sometimes will Sa> work to destroy it. Couldn't the same be said of liberals? Generally speaking, we liberals don't like churches interfering in public policy ... when the religious right is involved. But what about church leaders calling for humane welfare reform, or increased funding for food stamps? As for vourchers, what they will do is funnel money to the private schools, and eventually get the public involved ... we have to track our money, after all, and have some control over it. But what it will also do is "reward" the private schools who can turn away students at whim, and more insidiously subsidize the disinitegration of civil society - if we can all split up into our little cliques, ideas like community and diversity go down the drain. ... Jesus saves, Allah protects, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Thu Mar 13 14:48:37 CST 1997 Message number: 95 Reply to message number: 92 S> If funds are taken from the monies spent on teachers, buildings, S> utilities, and other resources are bundled into vouchers and S> sent to parents are public schools cannot hope to compete. S> Teachers would be fired, buildings closed, and costs would be S> cut every where in the system. The schools would crumble I just found out yesterday that my school will no longer be having neither a psychology class nor an AP Psychology class nor a world religions class. I've been through all three, and they were among my favorite and the most informative classes I've taken in high school. And we're dropping these all because we don't have enough funds to pay for the teachers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Thu Mar 13 16:08:23 CST 1997 Message number: 96 Reply to message number: 95 S> I just found out yesterday that my school will no longer be having neither a S> psychology class nor an AP Psychology class nor a world religions class. I' S> been through all three, and they were among my favorite and the most S> informative classes I've taken in high school. And we're dropping these all S> because we don't have enough funds to pay for the teachers. This breaks my heart. When I was in high school, I had 4 years of Latin, 2 of chemistry, one of biology, and one of college-level zoology. I don't know what is wrong with Americans that they are so intent on educating the children less and less. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 14 14:11:18 CST 1997 Message number: 97 Reply to message number: 96 F> This breaks my heart. When I was in high school, I had 4 years of F> Latin, 2 of chemistry, one of biology, and one of college-level zoology. I F> don't know what is wrong with Americans that they are so intent on educating F> the children less and less. Latin! Zoology! ah, I feel so... so... jealous. I think we've got a basic problem that as a society there seems to be a lot of talk about how important education is, especially around election time. When it comes down to it months later, the only initiatives I see are all sorts of standards being passed. Our students have to pass this test, or that test, but nothing is done to help the students so they can pass them, fewer teachers, fewer educational opportunities... And I see mostly my school which is exemplary in doing a lot with little. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 14 15:41:30 CST 1997 Message number: 98 Reply to message number: 97 S> months later, the only initiatives I see are all sorts of standards being S> passed. Our students have to pass this test, or that test, but nothing is S> done to help the students so they can pass them, fewer teachers, fewer S> educational opportunities... And I see mostly my school which is exemplary i S> doing a lot with little. My take on it is that I think that we should separate the students into doers and slackers. I was horrified to find out that summer school was reserved for remedial students and that a gifted student who wanted to take an advanced class was excluded. In fact, usually, valuable classes are also not offered in summer school. I think that it is time that we began to favor students who try hard, offer these classes for them, and other than that, offer a basic curriculum designed to equip students to identify the sandwich pictures on a McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track they want to take. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Mon Mar 17 15:53:02 CST 1997 Message number: 99 Reply to message number: 98 F> My take on it is that I think that we should separate the students F> into doers and slackers. I was horrified to find out that summer school was works for me, probably work for society too. F> into doers and slackers. I was horrified to find out that summer school was F> reserved for remedial students and that a gifted student who wanted to take F> advanced class was excluded. In fact, usually, valuable classes are also no Yes, this is stupid. As someone who might consider these types of classes, I'm annoyed that there are none offered. The impression is valuing making up for past mistakes of others rather than allowing the workers to work to their potential. F> advanced class was excluded. In fact, usually, valuable classes are also no F> offered in summer school. I think that it is time that we began to favor I had a pair of friends who took French II during the summer and were allowed into French III the next fall, that was quite impressive to me. In one summer they caught up to my level of French, in what had been a nine-month course for me. F> offered in summer school. I think that it is time that we began to favor F> students who try hard, offer these classes for them, and other than that, F> offer a basic curriculum designed to equip students to identify the sandwich F> pictures on a McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track th F> want to take. Here, here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Tue Mar 18 01:53:34 CST 1997 Message number: 100 Reply to message number: 99 S> Yes, this is stupid. As someone who might consider these types of classes, S> I'm annoyed that there are none offered. The impression is valuing making u S> for past mistakes of others rather than allowing the workers to work to thei S> potential. S> I have no objection to allowing opportunities for slower students to catch up and make up for past mistakes. I do object to favoring them to the extent that they are kept in classes against their will and still do notr take advantage of it, but students who want to work harder and pull ahead are discriminated against. S> I had a pair of friends who took French II during the summer and were allowe S> into French III the next fall, that was quite impressive to me. In one summ S> they caught up to my level of French, in what had been a nine-month course f S> me. S> This is what I mean. There should be more opportunities for kids to do stuff like this. Especially where it involves prerequisites or other classwork that is not normally offered in the school curriculum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Thu Mar 20 15:09:34 CST 1997 Message number: 101 Reply to message number: 100 F> I have no objection to allowing opportunities for slower students t F> catch up and make up for past mistakes. I do object to favoring them to the F> extent that they are kept in classes against their will and still do notr ta F> advantage of it, but students who want to work harder and pull ahead are F> discriminated against. Nor I. I too have been frustrated by the number of programs to help lagging students, while I have had trouble finding sufficient programs to challenge my intellect without requiring significant amounts of cash from me. F> This is what I mean. There should be more opportunities for kids t F> do stuff like this. Especially where it involves prerequisites or other F> classwork that is not normally offered in the school curriculum. Agreed. I'm all in favor of as many opportunities as can be provided by the school systems, within reason. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 08:58:19 CST 1997 Message number: 102 Reply to message number: 98 F> pictures on a McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track th F> want to take. Something like the educational system in Germany where they have three different schools. A basic "work program" school, a school for advanced students, and an inbetween. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 12:26:19 CST 1997 Message number: 103 Reply to message number: 102 F> pictures on a McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track th F> want to take. BT> BT> Something like the educational system in Germany where they have three BT> different schools. A basic "work program" school, a school for advanced BT> students, and an inbetween. BT> Yes. Here, they used to have a "track" system that worked similarly, but it was changed in the 60s because people were put into the lower tracks for the wrong reasons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 14:26:23 CST 1997 Message number: 104 Reply to message number: 96 F> This breaks my heart. When I was in high school, I had 4 years of F> Latin, 2 of chemistry, one of biology, and one of college-level zoology. I F> don't know what is wrong with Americans that they are so intent on educating F> the children less and less. From what I've seen after having much trouble enrolling for my junior year (finding classes that are actually 'challenging' with educational value), it seems that now the schools want to sort of "export" students. It seems to learn, you may have to go through the muck of Post-Secondary Enrollment or technical schools (the schools are good -- it's the registration process). What may be even worse about this from my experiences is that it's got nothing to do with the teachers, many are just as frustrated as the students (though most don't share their opinions), but obviously have to follow curriculum guidelines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 14:34:38 CST 1997 Message number: 105 Reply to message number: 98 F> My take on it is that I think that we should separate the students F> into doers and slackers. I was horrified to find out that summer school was Froggy, what do you mean by this? Are you saying: A. It should be divided similar to the German (and other) education systems, where at roughly the 5th grade level the kids are sorted between the high, medium, and low level schools? B. Education should continue for the 'doers' and the slackers should be brought up to speed? Or something else? This is an interesting discussion I've often had with my mother.. F> into doers and slackers. I was horrified to find out that summer school was F> reserved for remedial students and that a gifted student who wanted to take F> advanced class was excluded. In fact, usually, valuable classes are also no It's just savage. One would think that the school would be happy to lend students books (when unused) for learning new material. It's like "independent study" .. in order to be able to learn something on your own, you have to screw up (fail a class) first. What kind of message does this send? F> offered in summer school. I think that it is time that we began to favor F> students who try hard, offer these classes for them, and other than that, F> offer a basic curriculum designed to equip students to identify the sandwich Just as a side note, do you think that school sports directly deter this from happening? Just watch TV (gasp). Look who's on the tube, it's the basketball players, not the gifted students. But on the other hand, maybe the gifted students wouldn't want to be on TV. F> offer a basic curriculum F> designed to equip students to identify the sandwich F> pictures on a F> McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track th F> want to take. Some of us just want to make sure that we always get a Big Mac when we ask for one. On the other hand, giving correct change is an advanced topic, that should only be attempted by the active minded. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 14:37:07 CST 1997 Message number: 106 Reply to message number: 102 BT> Something like the educational system in Germany where they have three BT> different schools. A basic "work program" school, a school for advanced BT> students, and an inbetween. Actually, that could be a bad thing. It relies upon one test to determine how well the students do. According to my German teachers, and students in Germany they have talked to, it is such a high pressure exam, even the most intelligent with test anxiety will be cut down. If you think about it, it's a nice start for a caste system -- high, middle, low. You almost always can not jump between them either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 21:21:01 CST 1997 Message number: 107 Reply to message number: 105 TI> Froggy, what do you mean by this? Are you saying: TI> TI> A. It should be divided similar to the German (and other) education TI> systems, where at roughly the 5th grade level the kids are sorted between t TI> high, medium, and low level schools? TI> Not exactly. That kind of "sorting" has often been done with tests and other media that can be unfair. I had a friend who was "tracked" like this into a less demanding track in grade school and not allowed to take other classes. He managed to squeek into college, and as a soph, he needed an elective and took Chemistry 1. He also learned 7 languages by himself. He was obviously an advanced student, although possibly a late bloomer. I think there should be some attempts to design programs to allow students like this to self-motivate. Similarly, a kid who is uninterested or disruptive in classes should be prohibited from attending and interfering with others who want to learn. They will eventually end up at Mac's anyway. TI> B. Education should continue for the 'doers' and the slackers should be TI> brought up to speed? TI> "Bringing up to speed" is also education. There are some kids who are naturally more slow than others or learning disabled. I think it makes sense to allow them more leeway to learn. Slackers, however, are kids who don't apply themselves, disrupt classes, bring violence into the school. In my opinion they are not interested in learning and might as well be gone. TI> It's just savage. One would think that the school would be happy to len TI> students books (when unused) for learning new material. It's like "independ TI> study" .. in order to be able to learn something on your own, you have to TI> screw up (fail a class) first. What kind of message does this send? TI> With the budget restrictions they have, they cannot provide for everyone equally. So they have gone in the direction of providing only for the low-achievers. Admittedly, some of them need and appreciate the extra help, but I think it is stupid to force a slacker into taking extra classes to graduate that he won't bother to learn anyway. The same money and resources could be used to set up other opportunities for high-achieving students. TI> Just as a side note, do you think that school sports directly deter thi TI> from happening? Just watch TV (gasp). Look who's on the tube, it's the TI> basketball players, not the gifted students. But on the other hand, maybe TI> the gifted students wouldn't want to be on TV. TI> Not only on the tube, but prevalent in society. I am going crazy this week because there is nothing on TV except basketball and ice skating. I suppose golf will be on during the weekend. I know that athletics is valuable, and most Americans need more exercise. But enshrining sports heroes does little to help with that. Also, it is no longer possible to see Jeopardy. It is on at 2:30 am. Seems like our society should value academic achievement for at least a half hour a day. F> designed to equip students to identify the sandwich F> pictures on a F> McDonald's cash register. Then let them decide which track th F> want to take. TI> TI> Some of us just want to make sure that we always get a Big Mac when we TI> for one. On the other hand, giving correct change is an advanced topic, tha Some of those "achieving students" have already designed cash registers that do that. Of course, the Mac Clerk still has to be able to identify a quarter, a dollar bill, etc. The achievers will develop machines that also do this pretty soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 21 21:24:40 CST 1997 Message number: 108 Reply to message number: 106 TI> Actually, that could be a bad thing. It relies upon one test to determi TI> how well the students do. According to my German teachers, and students in TI> Germany they have talked to, it is such a high pressure exam, even the most TI> intelligent with test anxiety will be cut down. If you think about it, it's TI> nice start for a caste system -- high, middle, low. You almost always can n TI> jump between them either. Agreed. I think that things other than tests should be used and that there should be more flexibility. Classroom behavior, for example. A kid who repeatedly disrupts class and interferes with others should be asked to leave, but allowed to come back after a time if he changes his behavior. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 18:10:17 CST 1997 Message number: 109 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Sandman <=- -=> Quoting Sandman : Sa> This seems to be a trait found in all conservatives. If policy, a Sa> system, organization, tradition , or law doesn't advance the Sa> idealogy of conservatism they oppose it and even sometimes will Sa> work to destroy it. DR> Couldn't the same be said of liberals? Yes, but I don't find liberals advocating the end of public education because PE is not seem as promoting liberalism. I do find conservatives doing this with the voucher scheme. DR> Generally speaking, we liberals don't like churches interfering in DR> public policy ... when the religious right is involved. But what about DR> church leaders calling for humane welfare reform, or increased funding DR> for food stamps? Here it is the issues. The religious right pushes for restrictive policies on individual freedoms. They desire policies which use government promoting a religion favorable to the conservative idealogy. When the "religious left" advocate for certain policies they usually are not promoting a liberal idealogy. IMO when religious leaders call for certain "saftey net" programs to be increased or saved they are truly concerned about poor people. In the cases of welfare reform and food stamps I know that conservatives see a big evil agenda but all I see is a need being filled effectively by the only organization (government) capable of doing it fairly. I see conservatives targeting welfare, food stamps, and other programs that do not promote an idealogy for elimination and replacing these programs with church based welfare. Conservatives are fond of churches, because they view churches as promoters of conservativism. DR> As for vourchers, what they will do is funnel money to the private DR> schools, and eventually get the public involved ... we have to track DR> our money, after all, and have some control over it. But what it will DR> also do is "reward" the private schools who can turn away students at DR> whim, and more insidiously subsidize the disinitegration of civil DR> society - if we can all split up into our little cliques, ideas like DR> community and diversity go down the drain. That is kind of what I said. You just said it in fewer & more effective words. Back to separate, but equal. (unequal) ... Pick another tablet Moses. This time don't show it to Me. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 18:10:19 CST 1997 Message number: 110 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Specter <=- S> I just found out yesterday that my school will no longer be having neither S> psychology class nor an AP Psychology class nor a world religions class. S> been through all three, and they were among my favorite and the most S> informative classes I've taken in high school. And we're dropping these a S> because we don't have enough funds to pay for the teachers. Fr> Fr> This breaks my heart. When I was in high school, I had 4 Fr> years of Latin, 2 of chemistry, one of biology, and one of Fr> college-level zoology. I don't know what is wrong with Americans that Fr> they are so intent on educating the children less and less. Money. We are unwilling to pay for a high quality education for are students. We want to keep as much for ourselves as we can. Then when word comes of decreases in test scores we blame the under funded system for the problems. Perhaps some people need to look into the mirror. ... Let us trust in God who has always fooled us in the past. - Unknown ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: SPECTER Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 18:10:20 CST 1997 Message number: 111 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to Sandman <=- S> If funds are taken from the monies spent on teachers, buildings, S> utilities, and other resources are bundled into vouchers and S> sent to parents are public schools cannot hope to compete. S> Teachers would be fired, buildings closed, and costs would be S> cut every where in the system. The schools would crumble Sp> I just found out yesterday that my school will no longer be having Sp> neither a psychology class nor an AP Psychology class nor a world Sp> religions class. I've been through all three, and they were among my Sp> favorite and the most informative classes I've taken in high school. Sp> And we're dropping these all because we don't have enough funds to pay Sp> for the teachers. Plenty of money for school uniforms I'll bet? It is sad that public education has to be degraded because of the way that we choose to fund it. More and more students will have to learn on their own and study subjects that schools cannot afford to teach anymore. I don't like this because it is the conservative approach which could lead to further degrading of PE. The three R's! That all we need! Imagine the tax cuts if schools only taught Reading, Riting, and Rithmetic! No need for history, science, algebra, or any other subject that may cost money. ... A shot of reality never hurt anyone ³ÄÄÄIJž²ž²žš=ÄÄÄÄ, ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 23:38:52 CST 1997 Message number: 112 Reply to message number: 109 S> DR> Couldn't the same be said of liberals? S> S> Yes, but I don't find liberals advocating the end of public S> education because PE is not seem as promoting liberalism. S> I do find conservatives doing this with the voucher scheme. S> S> Here it is the issues. The religious right pushes for restrictive S> policies on individual freedoms. They desire policies which use S> government promoting a religion favorable to the conservative S> idealogy. This is the basic problem: Schools still advocate and support individual freedoms, at least to a degree. The conservatives see this as a liberal evil and want to restrict even more. Then they want to claim that the founding fathers, who came up with the individual freedoms, followed their brand of religion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 23:39:57 CST 1997 Message number: 113 Reply to message number: 110 S> We are unwilling to pay for a high quality education for are S> students. S> We want to keep as much for ourselves as we can. S> S> Then when word comes of decreases in test scores we blame the under S> funded system for the problems. S> Perhaps some people need to look into the mirror. S> Exactly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 23 23:41:50 CST 1997 Message number: 114 Reply to message number: 111 S> The three R's! That all we need! S> Imagine the tax cuts if schools only taught Reading, Riting, and S> Rithmetic! S> No need for history, science, algebra, or any other subject that S> may cost money. S> To say nothing about critical thinking and languages, which may show the student that there are more than just him in this world. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Motivations Date: Tue Mar 25 03:05:09 CST 1997 Message number: 115 Reply to message number: 109 S> DR> Generally speaking, we liberals don't like churches interfering in S> DR> public policy ... when the religious right is involved. But what about S> DR> church leaders calling for humane welfare reform, or increased funding S> DR> for food stamps? S> S> Here it is the issues. The religious right pushes for restrictive S> policies on individual freedoms. They desire policies which use S> government promoting a religion favorable to the conservative S> idealogy. And the religious left also pushes for policies which restrict individual freedoms. They have pushed for government interference in private business to enforce desegregation, and take all of our hard-earned dollars to fund their charity work. Their motivations are pure: they want a better society. So do the religious right. Only their goals are different. What makes people angry at the religious right is that they are so effective. What's wrong with this logic? S> When the "religious left" advocate for certain policies they S> usually are not promoting a liberal idealogy. IMO when religious S> leaders call for certain "saftey net" programs to be increased or S> saved they are truly concerned about poor people. And the religious right is not truly concerned about poor people? Some on the right are just as cynical of liberals, saying that the only reason they help poor people is to gain power and votes. Isn't this just the same thing? Attributing motives to a whole group of people is a dangerous thing ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Wed Mar 26 17:30:16 CST 1997 Message number: 116 Reply to message number: 107 F> Some of those "achieving students" have already designed cash F> registers that do that. Of course, the Mac Clerk still has to be able to F> identify a quarter, a dollar bill, etc. The achievers will develop machines F> that also do this pretty soon. Surprises me they haven't developed a machine that scans amount tendered and dispenses proper change. Then all they need is people who can identify fries and the various hamburgers, but as fast food occupies such a great deal of the society now most people can do that without special training. F> Jeopardy. It is on at 2:30 am. Seems like our society should value academi F> achievement for at least a half hour a day. I'd like that. I was on the news about a week ago for an academic achievement, nice enough, but my picture along with that of three other students for the same thing was on screen for just long enough to let the announcer read all four names, a few seconds. Sports headlines, interviews etc. all got several times that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Wed Mar 26 17:39:43 CST 1997 Message number: 117 Reply to message number: 111 S> Plenty of money for school uniforms I'll bet? Hmm? Not yet any mention of uniforms, but the only uniforms my school will be seeing are prison... That's just a comment on the state of my school right now... The restrictions are becoming very prison like, the school has to know where we are every minute of every hour, we can't do anything that would be even slightly disorganized, teachers must display their ID's at all times, students must always have ID's with them... etc. S> More and more students will have to learn on their own and study S> subjects that schools cannot afford to teach anymore. S> I don't like this because it is the conservative approach which S> could lead to further degrading of PE. Agreed. But I've found that the required and most simple subjects often have the most busy work, possibly to gring any information into the slackers brains, but mostly it just takes up a lot of time. A whole day of simple required classes will leave very little time to study other subjects. Dommage. S> Imagine the tax cuts if schools only taught Reading, Riting, and S> Rithmetic! But all only to a sixth grade level, which is certainly enough to get along in society. S> No need for history, science, algebra, or any other subject that We can capture history in with Reading and Riting, so some pro-keep everything as it is history will still get in there. S> ... A shot of reality never hurt anyone ³ÄÄÄIJž²ž²žš=ÄÄÄÄ, OH! oh no losing consciousness... fading... darkness.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Wed Mar 26 22:58:58 CST 1997 Message number: 118 Reply to message number: 116 S> Surprises me they haven't developed a machine that scans amount tendered and S> dispenses proper change. Then all they need is people who can identify frie They could do it now if they wanted to. Basically, change machines and terminal bankers already do it. S> I'd like that. I was on the news about a week ago for an academic S> achievement, nice enough, but my picture along with that of three other Congratulations! S> students for the same thing was on screen for just long enough to let the S> announcer read all four names, a few seconds. Sports headlines, interviews S> etc. all got several times that. In fact, the sports have been ridiculous. It has even been prempting various regular network shows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Sandman Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Thu Mar 27 06:27:34 CST 1997 Message number: 119 Reply to message number: 111 S> If funds are taken from the monies spent on teachers, buildings, S> utilities, and other resources are bundled into vouchers and S> sent to parents are public schools cannot hope to compete. S> Teachers would be fired, buildings closed, and costs would be S> cut every where in the system. The schools would crumble * what i wanna know is, how come the same people (republicans) who are cutting education budgets right and left (mostly right, hehe) are the same people who are always screaming about 'those people' and how nasty and uneducated 'they' are? it's their bed, they can lie in it... and lie, and lie, and lie... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Thu Mar 27 11:08:58 CST 1997 Message number: 120 Reply to message number: 119 C> what i wanna know is, how come the same people (republicans) who are cutting C> education budgets right and left (mostly right, hehe) are the same people wh C> are always screaming about 'those people' and how nasty and uneducated 'they C> are? C> it's their bed, they can lie in it... C> and lie, and lie, and lie... The problem is that they are creating a "we" and "them" mentality. they are raping the public schools as described while they have the money to send their own kids to private schools. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 28 16:15:05 CST 1997 Message number: 121 Reply to message number: 118 F> They could do it now if they wanted to. Basically, change machines F> and terminal bankers already do it. True, true. I remain rather surprised they haven't. Possibly a set state of mind that doesn't dream of the possibility of such, always assuming cashiers need to sort out change... S> I'd like that. I was on the news about a week ago for an academic S> achievement, nice enough, but my picture along with that of three other F> F> Congratulations! Thanks. Nothing big, a split second spot. They actually pronounced the names of two of my friends wrong, and the showed three males and read three male names, of which one of the males whose name was read wasn't there and one of the males who was there didn't get his name read. Anyway, thank you, but having been mentioned on TV doesn't seem to interest me in the least. An odd sensation, not caring that I was on TV one way or another. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 28 16:21:06 CST 1997 Message number: 122 Reply to message number: 118 F> In fact, the sports have been ridiculous. It has even been prempti F> various regular network shows. Sorry missed this in the last reply. Yes I've noticed, every time I turned on the television some game was playing, I couldn't escape it. Fortunately there are always other methods of entertainment, especially with public television and a nice library of books I have yet to read. The profusion of sports on television is really insane. I really doubt that the broadcast companies needed to play a game in nearly every time slot. I'm not particulary fond of any sport outside of soccer, so I wish they would just show the results at night and show regular programming during the day. Maybe a half hour show, maybe an hour covering all the games of that day. I'd be much happier with that. On the other hand, I only missed one show the entire week so it wasn't a big thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Fri Mar 28 17:15:22 CST 1997 Message number: 123 Reply to message number: 121 F> Congratulations! S> having been mentioned on TV doesn't seem to interest me in the least. An od S> sensation, not caring that I was on TV one way or another. That's good, because the congratulations was for the achievement, and not the TV. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sat Mar 29 11:38:36 CST 1997 Message number: 124 Reply to message number: 123 F> That's good, because the congratulations was for the achievement, F> and not the TV. True... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 30 19:17:05 CST 1997 Message number: 125 Reply to message number: 120 F> The problem is that they are creating a "we" and "them" mentality. F> they are raping the public schools as described while they have the money to F> send their own kids to private schools. * there's always been a 'they' and a 'we' mentality. NIMBY and all of that. i hate it. not only is the enemy 'us', so is the family. i wish the repubs would figure it out. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: Quotes Date: Sun Mar 30 23:02:10 CST 1997 Message number: 126 Reply to message number: 125 C> there's always been a 'they' and a 'we' mentality. NIMBY and all of that. i C> hate it. not only is the enemy 'us', so is the family. i wish the repubs wou C> figure it out. I think most of them have figured it out. They just want to justify that "they" are more deserving than others and keep as much of the goodies as they can for themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: school funding Date: Fri Apr 04 16:39:32 CST 1997 Message number: 127 Reply to message number: unavailable It looks like our school is at it again... They're cutting over 3/4ths of the Art classes, firing teachers (there's supposed to be 22.5 kids / teacher, but it's more like 30 something), and cutting other misc. classes.. While in the process there ... guess what? Building a _brand new_ weight room! Yippee! After much hounding, the logic that they've applied behing it is that there's a seperate budget for various parts of the school (building, classes, supplies, etc.) and the building portion had a surplus - everything else had to be cut back on. ...and of course there's no way that they could violate their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this seem like getting your leg broken, and then going to the dentist for the second time that week? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: school funding Date: Fri Apr 04 18:09:52 CST 1997 Message number: 128 Reply to message number: 127 BT> their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this Well I have the smae sort of thing going on at my school but only the things that I participate in are getting cut. They are dropping two music teachers, my choir and band directors, and they are cutting the funding for the English Dept. so the $50 that they give the Muse (our literary arts magazine) is not gonna be there next year. But you know the dance line and football teams are getting new uniforms after getting a new field last year. I am so sick of it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: school funding Date: Fri Apr 04 19:42:20 CST 1997 Message number: 129 Reply to message number: 127 BT> process there ... guess what? Building a _brand new_ weight room! Yippee! BT> their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this BT> seem like getting your leg broken, and then going to the dentist for the BT> second time that week? BT> Well, it will be possible to produce a generation of people who don't insist on unnecessary things like art museums and musical instruments, but will be glad to be taxed to build new sports arenas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sat Apr 05 06:38:56 CST 1997 Message number: 130 Reply to message number: 127 BT> It looks like our school is at it again... They're cutting over 3/4ths of BT> Art classes, firing teachers (there's supposed to be 22.5 kids / teacher, b BT> it's more like 30 something), and cutting other misc. classes.. While in t Argh. Sounds a lot like my school next year, but a lot worse. I have to ask which school you go to? My school is doing dumb stuff like this too, for instance combining all three levels of Science courses into one class with 32 students. (Imagine a teacher trying to teach Waves and Harmonic Motion to one group while showing another how magnets work, and another pressure and temperature are related... all withing one 47 minute period.) But that isn't as bad cutting 3/4ths of the art classes. i feel sorry for you, all those cuts are pretty sick. BT> process there ... guess what? Building a _brand new_ weight room! Yippee! BT> After much hounding, the logic that they've applied behing it is that there BT> a seperate budget for various parts of the school (building, classes, BT> supplies, etc.) and the building portion had a surplus - everything else ha BT> to be cut back on. ...and of course there's no way that they could violate BT> their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this Of course not. No one seems to have come across the idea of opening up funding from overfunded areas to underfunded areas, and that they haven't is pretty sick... BT> their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this BT> seem like getting your leg broken, and then going to the dentist for the BT> second time that week? Because it is... :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sat Apr 05 08:58:33 CST 1997 Message number: 131 Reply to message number: 130 S> students. (Imagine a teacher trying to teach Waves and Harmonic Motion to on S> group while showing another how magnets work, and another pressure and S> temperature are related... all withing one 47 minute period.) But that isn' S> as bad cutting 3/4ths of the art classes. i feel sorry for you, all those S> cuts are pretty sick. S> Actually, that can be done well with a little curriculum design. I took 4 years of Latin, in groups of 2 years. The first 2 years were mixes class level and dealt with language basics -- vocabulary, sentence structure, some history and culture, etc. The second 2 years were dedicated to using the language in full. We translated Caesar's Gallic Wars, Cicero, Virgil, Ovid, and some Homer. I think the same kind of thing could be well done in sciences. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sun Apr 06 07:24:09 CDT 1997 Message number: 132 Reply to message number: 131 F> Actually, that can be done well with a little curriculum design. I F> took 4 years of Latin, in groups of 2 years. The first 2 years were mixes F> class level and dealt with language basics -- vocabulary, sentence structure F> some history and culture, etc. The second 2 years were dedicated to using t I've done the mixed levels in French and German both, and it works there. I think it works better in language because it is possible to teach parts of the same subject to multiple levels at the same time. It's harder with sciences because one has to teach three entirely different subjects to three entirely different groups, and all within 47 minutes. I don't think the curriculum can be designed to teach to three different groups at the same time. Yes, to a point they can follow similar paths, but the AP is so far ahead of the other groups that they require an entire hour of teaching on the higher level material. But the lower levels deserve equal time, and probably wouldn't get mcuh out of Wave Harmonics... I think there's too much difference in material to be taught to three levels at the same time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sun Apr 06 08:26:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 133 Reply to message number: 132 F> Actually, that can be done well with a little curriculum design. I S> I've done the mixed levels in French and German both, and it works there. I S> think it works better in language because it is possible to teach parts of t S> material. But the lower levels deserve equal time, and probably wouldn't ge S> mcuh out of Wave Harmonics... I think there's too much difference in S> material to be taught to three levels at the same time. Why? Both languages and sciences need certain previous education befor you can learn higher areas. A certain proficiency in your own lange, vocabulary, and sentence structure must be mastered before you can learn other languages. Similarly, students must have a basic scientific and math education ti begin with, but once they have that, I see no reason why they cannot adapt the sequences that they study wave theory, thermodynamics, resolution of forces, etc. I think that 9th graders who have the basics would do just as well as 12th graders. But, as we have both mentioned, it would require changing the curriculum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sun Apr 06 15:43:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 134 Reply to message number: 127 BT> a seperate budget for various parts of the school (building, classes, BT> supplies, etc.) and the building portion had a surplus - everything else ha BT> to be cut back on. ...and of course there's no way that they could violate BT> their own beurocracy and just allocate the funds elsewere.. Why does this What district is this, praytell? I suggest you write the local papers - the Strib, the Pioneer Press and the City Pages. And if you're feeling energetic, your local state Reps and Senator. Who knows, it might even help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: school funding Date: Mon Apr 07 15:39:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 135 Reply to message number: 133 F> Why? Both languages and sciences need certain previous education F> befor you can learn higher areas. A certain proficiency in your own lange, F> vocabulary, and sentence structure must be mastered before you can learn oth F> languages. Similarly, students must have a basic scientific and math True, but having seen both sides I'm just leaning toward the gut feeling, and how I've experienced things. F> resolution of forces, etc. I think that 9th graders who have the basics wou F> do just as well as 12th graders. But, as we have both mentioned, it would F> require changing the curriculum. Oh certainly... I could have done this as 9th grader myself, but grade level isn't the question, it's the difference between levels within one grade. A.P. students who want to learn as much as possible versus lower levels who only want to learn basics, fewer formulas, less mental work. I worked out all the things they'd have to cover together, and while you're right readjusting the curriculum could change some of that, most of what I saw couldn't be taught together within one hour. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: school funding Date: Mon Apr 07 16:21:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 136 Reply to message number: 135 S> Oh certainly... I could have done this as 9th grader myself, but grade level S> isn't the question, it's the difference between levels within one grade. A. S> students who want to learn as much as possible versus lower levels who only S> want to learn basics, fewer formulas, less mental work. I worked out all th S> things they'd have to cover together, and while you're right readjusting the S> curriculum could change some of that, most of what I saw couldn't be taught S> together within one hour. I see. You have put a lot of thought into it. Seems like the old "track" system may work better to educate kids, but not necessarily to save money. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: school funding Date: Thu Apr 10 15:55:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 137 Reply to message number: 136 F> I see. You have put a lot of thought into it. Seems like the old F> "track" system may work better to educate kids, but not necessarily to save F> money. Thank you. Yes I have put a lot of thought into this, I won't be there next year, but I know many of the people coming up behind me, and I want there to be the same academic opportunity I had. Of course you're right, the "track" system will never save any more money, and that we might have to sacrifice it to conglomerating multiple levels is rather sad because it's entirely a money issue. Money for education, i really wish we had more. This is on my mind today because one of my friends, a very very intelligent person who excels beyond anyone else in my school in Physics and Mathematics, and is so incredibly well read it constantly astounds me was accepted to Carleton, but he can't go because he cannot pay for it. This is really sad to me because as he wants to study physics as his major, I know he has the potential to join the very top echelon of physicists, which I'm sure he'll do on his own through personal work, but I wish he had the opportunities that would be offered through Carleton. (He's going to the U of M instead, not bad but not as good as Carleton) Anyway, I just rambling, sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: school funding Date: Thu Apr 10 18:41:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 138 Reply to message number: 137 S> read it constantly astounds me was accepted to Carleton, but he can't go S> because he cannot pay for it. This is really sad to me because as he wants S> study physics as his major, I know he has the potential to join the S> very top echelon of physicists, which I'm sure he'll do on his own through S> personal work, but I wish he had the opportunities that would be offered S> through Carleton. (He's going to the U of M instead, not bad but not as good S> as Carleton) S> I suppose he has completely researched financial aid and scholarship info. There are a lot of special-duty scholarships that go unclaimed every year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sat Apr 12 08:05:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 139 Reply to message number: 138 F> I suppose he has completely researched financial aid and scholarshi F> info. There are a lot of special-duty scholarships that go unclaimed every F> year. I'm not sure, he has researched many, and applied for some. But the $20,000 a year he'd need is a lot of scholarships, but again you're right there are scholarships that go unclaimed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Specter Subject: Re: school funding Date: Wed Apr 23 16:11:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 140 Reply to message number: 130 S> Argh. Sounds a lot like my school next year, but a lot worse. I have to as S> which school you go to? My school is doing dumb stuff like this too, for Seems to be most/all of district 196.. (south suburbs) Oi mashugana, it seems to be _all_ the schools everywhere now that I think about it.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: school funding Date: Sat Apr 26 20:11:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 141 Reply to message number: 140 BT> Seems to be most/all of district 196.. (south suburbs) Oi mashugana, it se BT> to be _all_ the schools everywhere now that I think about it.. Oh, yeah. There doesn't seem to be a public school out there that isn't losing funding. And most of them are making up for it by cutting programs, often the programs outside the core, often the programs that make school a tolerable place. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: CRe Date: Sun Apr 27 19:42:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 142 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: Thiest Watch ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: Bob Moylan Read: Yes Replied: No Subj: Creation ?Science? ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From the Virginian-Pilot, Norfolk, Va Tuesday, April 15, 1997 By Nancy Young - staff writer ======== CHESAPEAKE MAKES SOME CONCESSIONS ON CREATIONISM The school board monday night unanimously rejected a parent's request that a biology textbook be discontinued because it teaches only one theory of the origin of life. At the same time, the board appeared to support the parent in theory. "This was the best secular book by a publisher we could find," said board member Patricia P. Willis. "...Ultimately, we still have to use the textbook." Citing possible illegality, board members also voted down parent Carol Johnson's request that creation science be taught on an equal footing with evolution -- but they left open a voluntary option. "While we cannot mandate the teaching of creationism, it can be voluntarily done by our teachers," said board member Jeffrey A. Rowland, adding that he questioned the theory of evolution when he was taught it as a sophomore "because it did go against all of my beliefs. It's totally permissible to question, and I encourage all students to go with their beliefs." The board also left open the door to place a statement -- as Willis suggested -- in each science textbook emphasizing that evolution is a theory, not fact, and that there are other theories, including creation science. "There's enough debate here among people of scientific background for us to make parents and students aware of the existence of the debate." board member james J. Wheaton said. Superintendent W. Randolph Nichols also said the district would buy a text recommended by Johnson, who challenged the seventh grade biology textbook her son was using at Hickory Middle School. The texts would be available in each middle and high school library. Johnson said she was disappointed that the board turned down her requests. "It's legal and lawful to teach creation science in schools," she said Monday night. "It's not a religious thing, it's a science thing. I'm not talking religion. They're talking religion." Board member Allen H. Goode Jr. agreed that the board was talking about religion -- and that was what made the situation dangerous, he said. "We're on thin ice. We should not have come this far. We're creating a monster," he said. ======== Chesapeake borders Virginia Beach, the home of the Rabid Rev. Pat Robertson and all the spin offs from CBN. ... It's always nice to know you have the proper enemies! -!- PPoint 2.03 ! Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) ... I'd love to, but I've dedicated my life to linguini. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Re: CRe Date: Mon Apr 28 16:09:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 143 Reply to message number: 142 S> The board also left open the door to place a statement -- as Willis S> suggested -- in each science textbook emphasizing that evolution is a S> theory, not fact, and that there are other theories, including creation S> science. I object to this book too, by golly. It has references to this "heliocentric theory" thing, where the authors actually claim - get this - that the Earth revolves around the sun. I can find at least half a dozen scientists, of good Christian standing, who could find fault with this scientific ... "theory". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: CRe Date: Tue Apr 29 06:10:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 144 Reply to message number: 143 S> The board also left open the door to place a statement -- as Willis S> suggested -- in each science textbook emphasizing that evolution is a S> theory, not fact, and that there are other theories, including creation S> science. DR> DR> I object to this book too, by golly. It has references to this DR> "heliocentric theory" thing, where the authors actually claim - get this - DR> that the Earth revolves around the sun. DR> DR> I can find at least half a dozen scientists, of good Christian standing, DR> who could find fault with this scientific ... "theory". Well, it is reasonable to treat all "theories" as theories. The problem is to also list examples that support the theories. The question is, who should do this and what sources should they use? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: CRe Date: Tue Apr 29 10:40:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 145 Reply to message number: 143 DR> I can find at least half a dozen scientists, of good Christian standing, DR> who could find fault with this scientific ... "theory". At least half a dozen. I'd expect you could find at least half a thousand without trying too hard. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: CRe Date: Tue Apr 29 17:29:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 146 Reply to message number: 144 F> Well, it is reasonable to treat all "theories" as theories. F> The problem is to also list examples that support the theories. The questio F> is, who should do this and what sources should they use? Why, the scientists of good Christian standing should do the research. And the sources they use should be those approved of by the church, in line with the teachings and the word of god. Anything else would be uncivilized. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: CRe Date: Tue Apr 29 17:29:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 147 Reply to message number: 145 DR> I can find at least half a dozen scientists, of good Christian standing, DR> who could find fault with this scientific ... "theory". S> S> At least half a dozen. I'd expect you could find at least half a thousand S> without trying too hard. I said *good* Christian standing. What are you, some kind of Lutheran? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: CRe Date: Wed Apr 30 15:47:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 148 Reply to message number: 146 F> Well, it is reasonable to treat all "theories" as theories. F> The problem is to also list examples that support the theories. The questio F> is, who should do this and what sources should they use? DR> DR> Why, the scientists of good Christian standing should do the research. And DR> the sources they use should be those approved of by the church, in line wit DR> the teachings and the word of god. DR> DR> Anything else would be uncivilized. Why, of course. Silly me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: CRe Date: Wed Apr 30 17:30:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 149 Reply to message number: 148 DR> Anything else would be uncivilized. F> F> Why, of course. Silly me. Well, we all know you're a touch bit uncivilized Froggy. You Quakers have been known to doubt the word of our nation's glorious leaders from time to time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: CRe Date: Thu May 01 18:26:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 150 Reply to message number: 147 DR> I said *good* Christian standing. Oh, yeah. I forgot about the *good* Christian standing factor. DR> What are you, some kind of Lutheran? Actually I'm a Methodist/mystic so I'm even more of a freak. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: CRe Date: Mon May 05 17:35:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 151 Reply to message number: 149 DR> Well, we all know you're a touch bit uncivilized Froggy. You Quakers have DR> been known to doubt the word of our nation's glorious leaders from time to DR> time. * hey. dontcha be dissin' no quakers. richard nixon was a quaker. hehehe -=c=-